American POTUS - Hal Wert: Hoover vs. Roosevelt

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squadcaster-2gc9_1_05-10-2024_160101: 0:24

Welcome to American POTUS. I'm your host, Alan Lowe. And before I turn to our great guest today, I wanted to let our listeners know that this is my first episode going solo. Our longtime co host and producer and great friend Scott Brun has gone on to non POTUS pastors, and we wish him the very, very best. I know he'll be listening. So for the next few episodes, please have patience as I learn how to be a producer in addition to being a host. I'm committed to carrying on with American POTUS. As you may know, we've recorded over 100 episodes with amazing guests, and I remain obsessed with the topic of the presidents and the presidency. So I really, really appreciate your support and your patience. So with that, it is my pleasure to welcome our guest today, Dr. Hal Wert, a professor emeritus of history at the Kansas City Art Institute. Hal has written several books, including George McGovern and the Democratic Insurgents. Hope, a collection of Obama posters and prints. Hoover, the fishing president, a portrait of the private man. And the terrific book we're going to discuss today, Hoover versus Roosevelt, two presidents battle over feeding Europe and going to war. Hal, welcome to American POTUS. it's an honor to be here. Well, I, uh, I'm so pleased that you said yes, and, uh, you too have been, been patient with me as I've learned this new additional role I, really am a bit obsessed with Herbert Hoover and FDR. So I was glad to see your book and certainly enjoyed it. Uh, let, let's, let's take our listeners back to, explain Herbert Hoover and his presence on the world stage. He really burst onto that world stage, right after, during and after World War I. So can you perhaps start us today by describing the incredible work he did at that time in Europe to save millions of lives? Prior to that. Probably the peak of his fortune in 19 0 4, 19 0 5, which then was estimated at four or$5 million. But when World War, one broke out, there were tremendous numbers of Americans that were trapped in Europe. And Hoover volunteered with the American Ambassador to Great Britain to find a way to get them home. And in the process they discovered that the food situation in Belgium was terrible. And he was asked by the American ambassador in Belgium and others if they could put together a relief effort. Well this became an absolutely incredible thing. The operation was so big that by 1919 they were feeding about 10 million people. And in that process they had spent about 900 million dollars. As I looked it up today, you can see See how much$900 million is today, but it's a staggering 16 billion$248,485,000 but the CRB, uh, charted its own ships, made its own, purchases of grain, raised the money, both from contributions from government, particularly Great Britain, France, Belgium, and the United States, and a few others. And then some direct contributions from individuals in those countries as well. But what it did is put Herbert Hoover on the national stage. The Wilson administration asked him to come in and be war food administrator at the end of the Wilson administration. He did that and that successfully. So everybody in America by 1919 knew Herbert Hoover. Well, I know that my first time at West Branch, the wonderful Presidential Library and Museum there in Iowa, I really saw the dichotomy between that early view of Hoover and the trouble he went through, of course, with the Great Depression during his presidency of this amazing start, though, this bursting onto the world stage as the savior, frankly, of millions of people. So, the two presidents you talk about, again, are Hoover and FDR. And you talk about the similar, obviously there are great differences, there are some similarities between the two men. Just to kind of begin today then, can you talk about those personal and ideological differences and similarities between Herbert Hoover and Franklin Roosevelt? Sure, let me back up a bit. After World, at the end of World War I, I started the American Relief Administration. It went through three presidential administrations. And provided aid for, again, millions and millions of people in 20 different countries. But yes, there are tremendous differences between the two presidents. Of course, FDR is born to wealth, the blue bride. And Hoover, a lot of people have thought of Hoover's early life as being one of poverty, but in fact, by the time he's a junior in high school and then a senior in high school, He lives in Oregon and his family is very middle class. But he holds very different views than FDR does. FDR, his experiences in the New York legislature, brought him in contact with people in New York City in the resettlement efforts that sort of awakened his social consciousness about things that needed to be done and particularly with the poverty that existed at the time. And Hoover too had been exposed to that in his world travel. For So both of them, I think, had a very good sense about some things that needed to be done. They're both progressives. They're both in the, one of course a Wilson progressive, the other a Teddy Roosevelt progressive. But they're tremendously influenced by Woodrow Wilson's internationalism. And that's something that they do share. In fact, in 1919, Roosevelt, wrote a letter to the American ambassador to Belgium suggesting that Hoover would make a very fine presidential candidate in 1920. It's interesting, too, that, how things might have been different had Hoover won the presidency in 1920 rather than in 1928. But Hoover saw the system as the solution to problems. He's very much an empiricist, very much a data guy. And FDR is exactly the opposite. He does not crush the system. He does not pay any attention to the hierarchy or chain of command. And while that causes difficulties, he's perfectly willing to bypass people in higher positions and make friends, and gather material from people that he trusts. It's interesting you say, you know, both progressives. That's, as I think the, um, Perhaps the less informed view of Hoover would not think that, but it certainly was his background. And, again, something your remarks remind me of is that strain of Wilsonism that, that goes on,, after the Wilson administration on, uh, if I recall correctly, Richard Nixon said one of his heroes was Woodrow Wilson because of that international approach, that international perspective. So, again, Uh, and often said to people that, he thought, New Jersey's schoolmaster would approve of some of the things that he had done, during the presidency. But later, I mean, Hoover's is a progressive, up in say, into the 1920s. Uh, but by the time he's a president, he's moved to a more traditional 19th century liberal position. A Republican moderate. So we know that Hoover loses his bid for re election as the country's in the throes of the Great Depression and FDR goes into office. So when war broke out in 1939 in Europe, where was Herbert Hoover then? And how had he been spending his time since that losing campaign to FDR back in 32? Well, after he lost, it was very, he probably, very few people in American history have gone from the pillars Of success that he had before the presidency to becoming the, you know, having the albatross of the depression around that. that's a difficult thing for him to deal with. But by say 1936, he's back in politics again. And in one sense he's a kind of ler ahead of the Republican party and as an ex-president, he has a voice and he's adamantly opposed to the new deal. But by 1939. He also becomes opposed to Roosevelt's foreign policy and distrusts Roosevelt, as many other people do, that after the war breaks down, Roosevelt will lead us into that war. Could or should be met? You know, I think that's interesting. I think one of the most important things I found out during the research is that of course, 90%, over 90% of the American people are opposed to intervention its own war, but tremendous numbers of those people, including both Roosevelt and Hoover support building up the American military. Others do not, but Uber does. His stipulations was trying to decide between offensive and defensive weapons. He was perfectly happy to sell any defensive weapons to any country that needs it, in terms of reforming the neutrality laws. But FDR wanted to have an open hand, and that's their disagreement about aid to Europeans at the time. I think many historians have underestimated the importance of World War I in 1939. Situation. The, the war is alive and well in people's memory. And the horrors of the war, the 10 million people killed on the Eastern front. Disappointment with the Treaty of Versailles, and reluctant to be able to get involved again militarily. Well, I think of course, that Hitler took advantage of that with his own people, but also as you look at England and France and the other Western powers. Not preparing, not being ready to take on the German threat before war because of that memory. Right. That's interesting about, about the German threat. Threat too. I, I think in 1939 the majority of Americans, uh, cannot conceive of the fact that Hitler could, could defeat Great Britain. I see. Yeah. That's gonna change, of course, right? You know, they're the great powers. In the world. And so, you know, Roosevelt's strategy of helping the British and the French arming them. first and then there being our first line of defense while building up our defense is a position that is accepted by tremendous numbers of Americans. The fight is not really about intervention. It's the, the fight is about how to stay out of the war. So, we know at the very beginning of the war in Europe, as the Germans go into Poland, FDR reached out tentatively to Hoover for assistance and relief efforts in Poland. So, why did FDR do that despite their differences, and how did that effort die almost immediately? Well, we could spend some time on this, but, after the presidency, and the interregnum, between Roosevelt and Kennedy, The Hoover administration, uh, in 1932 and 1933, there developed between the two of them a kind of enmity. So you're right, Occupy, why would you reach out? But a lot of it has to do with Eleanor Roosevelt and influence on her by a woman by the name of Maria Maloney, who spoke to her, a liberal Republican who spoke to her and said, you know, you know about, uh, Hoover's great accomplishments during the war. You need to bring him in as a war foods administrator and get her in charge of relief. And Eleanor had already recognized that, and so she pushes her husband to make an offer to Hoover to come in to the administration in charge of relief. Actually in the negotiations that took place in September of 1939 between the two of them, Uh, Roosevelt really has no interest in really bringing, Hoover into the administration. And Hoover has no interest in going into the administration. So in a way, they both get what they want. Now, Hoover needs to know that FDR made the effort. And Hoover needs to know that, the proposals that he makes to, uh, to, uh, Roosevelt on a Uh, will not be acceptable and they can both go about their own way. What Hoover really wanted, was the Red Cross to take up feeding, as part of the relief effort. And the Red Cross and the Roosevelt administration were committed to a policy of emergency aid only. And that's the crux of the argument. Hoover wants a feeding program that's more long term. And FDR and the Democrats do not want to get involved. And they think that Hoover's ideas really threaten them. It could potentially threaten, uh, aid to Great Britain, and France. Sure, he does. I mean, you know, I think because of Hoover's, and we'll talk about this later with Finland as well, but because of, Hoover's commitment to the Poles, which is a long one, he was responsible during the Treaty of Versailles of pushing Wilson hard to recognize Poland and during the, uh, as an independent country. And during the operations of the ARA, uh, he ensured that Poland had gotten a tremendous, amount of, aid. So in some ways with both Finland, and we'll talk about that later and with Poland, Hoover and people associated with Hoover and the American relief And had a thumb in the Polish pie for a long time. So once the war starts on September 1st, it's pretty clear. Uh, he's in California trying to hustle votes. A non committed California delegation for the coming, Republican convention in 1940. What, it's pretty clear that he's going to attempt to do something. And then the person that's with him at the time, um, an American woman that had worked in Belgium, for all of those years, pushes him hard, too, to go for Polish relief and to set an organization up. So, he, regardless of what FDR says or doesn't do, which he's not going to bend on policy, it's pretty clear that Hoover's going to go ahead with aid. And he does so. And creating with a commission for college relief what shocks fdr is how quick he can possibly do it Because it's a private organization And the money comes from money that was left over from the belgian american educational fund when after world war one They sold commodities that they still had when they disbanded the crb and banked that money for scholarships and aid for belgium so in a way he has Money available that he can get to quickly And two, the American Relief Administration and the CRB have had reunions every year since 1919 and 1923. And he has what I call a kind of, uh, Minutemen of Relief. People that, uh, means of success that he can call on immediately, to volunteer for an aid program. So that by the end of September 1939, he's already a business and he has already, He's already able to transfer some money to Poland and, and those folks, he has on the ground there working on the ground, not just in Poland, but in the, the countries around where those refugees are streaming. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Well, of course, originally it's the people that served in the CRB who are now quite successful or served in the a RA, but on the ground, it's recommended to him by Maurice Pay, who eventually became head of unicef. And was a relief worker in the ara and Had worked closely with hoover said, you know if we can get paul super if we can find paul super who's head of the Bullish ymca, we can probably set up an organization more quickly in romania And be able to render aid there's tens of thousands of people coming across the border that are racing across poland to escape the The german onslaught that's pushing them into romanian hunger So how did, how did Hoover's people there in the CPR work with the Germans? How did the Germans view, how did the Nazis view their efforts within Poland? Well, the efforts in Poland don't take place for a while. Not until later in the fall. But of course the Germans are, unhappy about any aid for Poles and would like to see Poland totally disappear. But of course, the Roosevelt administration, approves of a Polish government that's attempting to re establish itself in France. Uh, and decides that a government does not have to be on its original soil to be able to represent a particular country. I see. Part of that decision was based on the fact that The, Serbian army had been driven to Corfu during World War I. Um, and people continue to recognize it as the legitimate government of Serbia. So they found a historical precedent for it. But the people that are working on the ground in Romania immediately are an amazing group of people. And it's, in fact, almost a miracle that leaving Warsaw some with the diplomatic corps and others with the, with the welfare agency of the Polish government made it across Poland and were able to, to get an operation quickly. But, you know, super, I guess we should say this. The YMCA efforts in Europe after World War I are incredible. Some started a little bit earlier. Uh, it is a kind of ecumenicalism that was produced by Mott, who was the director of the YMCA at the time. So YMCA's are established in most of the East European, New East European countries that were created by the Treaty of Versailles. The people that ran those organizations, spoke the languages, knew the country, uh, and have spent many, many years there with many contacts. So in Romania, the YMCA under Jimmy Brown, and the YMCA then that leaves Poland, And by the end of September 1939, they're doing 1, 000 breakfasts, 2, 000 lunches and 2, 500 dinners a day. Wow. Wow. Very impressive. Uh, how did, how did FDR respond to the work of the CPR? I know part of that is how did he respond politically? What did he think Hoover was up to? Yeah, right. Well, not well, Not well, you know, I I think you know one of the pieces of the book that intrigued me by it that in all the rules about Reconjurancy over the years over policy. This is the only time that hoover gets a leg up on fdr because Public response to the cpr and particularly against polish americans, and of course most polish americans are democrats So fdr sees this as both a political threat and a threat to his policy of limited emergency aid but Because of the popularity of the cpr hoover forces both the red cross And fdr to do far more than they ever did Was hoover at that point thinking about another run Well, he's always thinking about it. You know, Mrs. POTUS, you know the disease. He's definitely thinking about running again, and not so much in 1936, but he really thinks he has a chance in 1940. And one of the reasons he does is there's no airfare in the Republican Party, and there's lots of newcomers in the party. Robert Taft is not elected until 1938. Dewey is still a successful attorney general, busting the mafia in New York, and you know, Hoover, he's been the past president, and so his strategy is to try to get as many delegations uncommitted as possible, then like William Jennings Bryan giving a great speech at the 1940 convention, and on the third or fourth ballot he thinks he's gonna win. Now, I understand that there's a high degree of fantasy involved. But what happens of course is I don't think his relief efforts some people have suggested that his Desire to be president again and his relief efforts are contradictory or that it's a cynical effort on his part, but I don't think it is. I mean, he's genuinely committed to both The polls and the fans and he also wants to be president The problem is in doing two things at the same time over the winter of 39 40. He spends way more time on relief He does on politics. And of course his strategy is simply that the relief efforts will drive, you know, will drive him towards the nomination in summer 1940. Of course they don't, but it's not unrealistic to think about that, because his campaign in 1940 really starts in Poland. Not in the united states, uh, it's it's his ability to generate publicity from that campaign The problem is he has trouble raising money. The cpr relied on mostly donations from the polish american community and the polish american community is badly split between The simplest way to say it is between the Chicago polls and the New York polls. And the New York polls tend to be very supportive of Hoover and the CPR, and the Chicago polls, who are the bigger of the national organizations, tend to lean toward the Red Cross. But both split the difference and give to both organizations. Although the Red Cross, given its tight policy, never runs a national campaign to raise money for either Poland or Finland. You know, you, you reminded me of a question I had early on, Hal, and I, I realize you just raised it again. Hoover and his desire to help so many we saw in the World War I machine right now as we're talking about his efforts as World War II breaks out. What, what do you think you know the man you've done so much research about Hoover. Where did that come from? What led him to have that genuine desire? Aside from the political um, Maneuvers were to come from. I think that's really a great question. I really do. I think, a lot, I think this is one of the things, uh, well, let me say this first, that you know, he has a special affection for children and a special affection for women. You know, he's very adamant about his commitment to the Geneva Convention and to the two hate conventions that civilians should not be attacked. In war, and she, uh, the, have neutral status. But I think it comes from his own childhood, where, he was orphaned at an early age, and his father died first. And so, in some ways, he was, you know, he and his brother and his sister were with a, an independent, struggling woman. And later, I think that, that, in his Quakerism, I think Yes. I think part of Eleanor Roosevelt's appreciation for Hoover is not only his great work in World War I, but I think her childhood was extremely difficult as well. So I think there's empathy there between the two of them about their difficult upbringing. Interesting. I do think it's sincere on that part. Yeah. And then, of course, in World War I. Uh, he's on the front to see exactly what happens. What's happening in Belgium, and what's happening particularly to women and children. It's the same argument we've got going with Gaza now, you know. The women and children of Gaza are suffering. providing arms. Part of that's all wrapped up in the Neutrality Act and the U. S. embargo provisions that are part of that. FDR worked to obtain an end to them. Can you, can you perhaps just describe in general what those embargo provisions were, how FDR fought them, and where Hoover stood in that debate? Sure. The idea was, you know, that, you could, you could not, export, the neutrality legislation and it had an embargo clause in it that you could not Sell to any countries that were at war And during the 19th after it was solidified in 34 and 35 congress, uh fasted roosevelt signed it The crisis that broke out particularly in china and then with the italians and ethiopia Demonstrated and in fact american neutrality tended to favor the aggressor Because the italians and the japanese didn't need anything but the chinese and the ethiopians did And so that brought that whole question up about what to do and what could be done. Amazingly, even some of the senators that had opposed FDR, the ones that are noted as the wild jackasses, uh, and that includes Borah of Idaho, and that includes Johnson of California, and that includes V. H. Wheeler, who's a democrat, by the way, of, uh, Montana. And then, the North Dakota Senator, too. Gerald Nye. But, the problem is this. That, that, they're not a necessary, the reason they oppose the, uh, reformation, or, or changes in the embargo legislation, is that they don't trust Roosevelt, and they think it's only the first move. So their attitude in 39 is, if we don't fight back, I'm going to stop now and make a strong case we won't have anything to stand on later when FDR wants to go further down the road. They're convinced that FDR wants to support the British and the French militarily and will get us involved in another war. Which brings an interesting question. You know, one of the, one of the words I was most interested in during the research was isolation. And isolation. And of course it's a pejorative and one that Roosevelt used effectively, and the arguments took place, in the Congress in 1939. And then later too, and a word that we use a lot today, and I finally decided there are no, there really are no isolationists in 1939. There are just anti interventionists that are fighting like mad about what's the best way to keep us out of war. Interesting. But that pejorative is still used today amazingly, and it's very effective. But ask yourself, what is it? I mean, what does it really mean? And so lots of people like the Four Wild Jackasses were not opposed to all kinds of other international organizations, uh, or E. And what they were opposed to was simply going to war The cry for most of Americans in 1939. And I think this is based on the experience of World War I, is never again we're not going to do this. Is in finland where the soviets invade in november. I was in finland last year My first time there in helsinki in vanta and that war seems to be very much still on their minds Especially with the aggressive moves recently of russia so how did fd? Yeah, how did fdr and the american government respond to that invasion of finland in november of 39? Well the roosevelt administration, I mean Basically The, the Roosevelt administration debates both with Poland and Hitler and, with Stalin, and the Russians about how far they want to go. And basically it's writing letters or making strong stands about, about their actions. They had no intention of taking any real action to prevent it. I think what they hoped both with Poland and with Finland is they would be very quick episodes that would disappear and they could stay tuned to their policy of aiding Great Britain and France and not get distracted. I think they're afraid that even that both Poland and Finland can become a backdoor to war. Of course, Uber is pushing for long term aid to Poland, long term feeding aid to Finland, Uh, to Finland and later in the spring long term feeding aid to, after the conquest, the Hitlerian conquest, to Holland and Belgium as well. That's the heart of the conflict. Like, the Roosevelt administration,, said to the Russians, please don't do anything you'll accept, uh, that will compromise Finnish neutrality, whatever. Uh, but, uh, Once the war starts, they're on the hook again to be able to help aid the Finns. Because Hoover moves immediately to aid the Finns. And there again, he was originally, he was very important in his secretary in World War I in gaining Finnish independence at the end of the war. And in fact, the Strauss Uh, who later became head of the Atomic Energy Commission, was his secretary. And he had held post aid, who was the foreign minister of Finland, with money and everything else to be able to get their independence. So there's no doubt Hoover's gonna go to the aid of Finland. And of course, because of what happened with the CRB, the Red Cross knows they have to get in there quick. Uh, and Norman Davis, who's head of the Red Cross, has done an amazing job. The telegram to uber boasting that the red cross had beat Uh uber to with supplies to help But the same thing's going to happen again. The only difference here uber's going to take a different tack He the crb was underfunded and he couldn't raise enough money. So uber decides he's going to do a nationwide campaign and enlist as many people as he possibly can And of course the finnish cause is way more popular than the bullish cause and partially because Americans knew basically four things about finland that it was far north and cold That they had great track stars and great runners in the late 1930s And that they had repaid their national debt to the united states. The only country that did so after world war one So that and because the fins hold out And this is not fdr would prefer that I think they not pulled out that the war would end quickly the pressure rises for more and more aid from finland And so hoover's nationwide campaign is tied to newspapers. He asked american newspapers to run ads and collect money for finland, and then Submitted directly to the finnish relief fund and that immediately makes it a nationwide campaign And for the first time, he makes, uh, overtures to Hollywood stars. And ends up having several dozen of them that campaigned nationally for Phineas Ridley. You like the picture in the book of Popeye making it? That was terrific. He got everyone involved. He did, got everyone involved, and of course, this is political pressure again. So, there's always two aspects of it. There's the humanitarian aspect, and both the Roosevelt administration and Hoover are genuine about that. Uh, and then there's the political aspect of it. Uh, a historian friend of mine, who I don't think is right about this, thinks that, FDR is really afraid of running against Hoover And I don't think so. I think he would be delighted to run it. Yeah. I tend to agree with you on that. I, I know FDR though did take efforts to smear this campaign for Finland. What were some of the ways he, he tried to fight this Finish Relief fund work by Hoover? Yeah. I mean that too is the same kind of story. they tried to make it look like it was illegitimate or mostly just politics on the part. But they were unsuccessful in doing that. What happened is that, in fact, millions of Americans made small donations to the Finnish Relief Fund. But again, like with Poland, there weren't any big donors. And so, both, by February of 1940, both the CPR and the FRI are beginning to run out of money. And so Hoover actually loans the Finnish Relief Fund a nice hunk of change. To be able to keep it going and he goes to Washington when FDR is out of town. It's interesting to get the FDR's calendar and to go to Washington so he wouldn't have to meet with the president. He went through Cordell Hall. Cordell Hall let him know when it would be okay to be able to come to Washington, avoid Roosevelt, and then make a pitch to the Congress about how much money needed to be appropriated for. Foreign a generally with earmarks for both, for both Poland and for Finland. But then the whole situation begins to change, as you know, quite radically in March of 1940, when, very quickly in March and April, uh, the Germans in Bay Market, I wondered, you talked about Hoover. Yeah, he does not want to do that, uh, but there's real pressure for him to do that. And there are several other organizations that began to compete for funds. And one of them is Fighting Funds for Finland, which is raising money. You could buy anything from a bullet, and swallow for a dollar. Or you could buy an airplane if you wanted to. And, you know, there are people also volunteering to go fight for Finland. Some people, some of the volunteers that were raised through the Finnish embassy, the people argued we missed our chance for the Spanish Civil War, and now we'll get our chance, in Finland. So there were volunteers leaving from America. A couple thousand of them eventually that did go to Finland. Uh, and at the same time, FDR is under pressure as well, but wait, the question was why Hoover changed his mind about it, but I think because of the competing organizations. What he really did is say, if you make donations to the Finnish Relief Fund and specify that it's for, arms and ammunition, I'll turn that money over to the other organizations. So it's a kind of halfway step to do that. And then Roosevelt's on the hook too, to the bins. And he actually, illegally, takes some fighter aircraft, the Buffalo Brewsters that belonged to the Navy at the, at the time they frontline fighters. But even a year later, they're basically because of the huge, increase in fighter production. But anyway, he decommissions them and has them flown, by, mostly by, people who worked for the Grumman Corporation to Iceland, and then Finnish pilots and Swedish pilots pick them up and fly them on to, uh, fly them on to Finland. So, there's, you know, the Roosevelt administration, too, is under real pressure to make direct cash contributions, which the Red Cross does not want. Which fdr does not want to do and in both cases they were lame They make cash contributions to the league of red cross societies that then disperse it to either the red cross in hungary or romania Or release it to the finnish red cross They do some other deals that are really interesting too that are kind of like the contra deals that the reagan administration did The Finns would like to have a 10 million loan. And the U. S. said we'd be happy to give that if you buy agricultural commodities. Well, you know, the Finns are not interested in agricultural commodities. Uh, what they want are arms and ammunition. So what happens is, the 10 million, uh, worth of, of commodities are put on the exchange, the wanted exchange. Um, and the Swedes buy the 10 million worth of commodities, and they turn the 10 million cash over to the Finns and then order arms and ammunition. The FDR administration did the same thing with John Kai Schack, but FDR, about November of 1940 says, you know, I think this is risky business, we ought not to do that. And they decide that that's going to be the last time that happens. You mentioned earlier the, uh, the Blitzkrieg into the Low Countries and into France. What did Hoover and his, and his organizations do there? And how far into the war effort did that continue? Is that a continuous thing or did it come to an end at some point? That's a great question, Alan. You know, I think the, uh, you know, I call the period, the period from the conquest of Poland in early October to Until the following spring when the war starts I call that period waiting for hitler Nobody knows what he's going to do in october. He's putting out kind of peace feelers and that sort of thing and I might say you asked me this question earlier and uh, we hadn't gotten to it yet But it's later in the fall that hoover decides he's not going to just aid the refugees in lithuania And hungary and in romania. He wants to get aid directly You Into the new german, you know, the germans took poland and carved it down Into a very small area called the government general and hoover wants to get aid in there and he begins negotiations in november december and he finally gets permission to be able to do some aid there in february And the question is why would the germans do that particularly because hoover would make the aid mandatory the jews could Uh, as well as Gentiles in Poland. And why would Hitler agree to that? Well, as part of those post, Polish invasion, efforts to make themselves look more reasonable as a type of PR factor, and the reasoning was they thought that eventually it would make no difference anyway whether they fed Jews or not because they had control of them and could do what they wanted. So, in fact, Hoover does get aid into the government, and that aid to Poland continues into 1941 and early 1942. And then just after America goes to War of Germany, it all comes to Mm-Hmm, So in the end, how would you characterize the, the success or lack of success of Hoover's relief efforts? Well, I, the reason I picked this up is, you know, I, he had ignored this story. Uh, the more I researched, the more I found out, it's not only that, that he was able to, you know, get one off on Franklin Roosevelt, it's hard for me to know how much he really appreciated that. That that was gonna be his only victory because, in the fall of 1940, in November, he starts, a new relief. Food committee, and pushes for it for the next two or three years, but it never goes anywhere So the victory that he has is between september of 1939 and 1940 but regardless of The politics involved what ended up being done for the polish refugees and for some people in the government general and for the feds is amazing It would be hard to know how the hundreds of thousands of people that poured out of Poland, it's sort of a diaspora of Poland, how much worse they would have fared if they didn't have access to food, lodging, travel, whatever, medical attention in all three countries. And traditionally I had read that most of the refugees escaped. And of course, that's not true. At first, tremendous numbers escaped, but then the Germans and the Russians put more and more heat on both the Lithuanians and on the Hungarians and the Romanians to be able to intern those soldiers and put them in camps. And several tens of thousands of them in all three countries end up going to camps. Most of them don't fare that well. And that's one thing I certainly meant to stress a bit more earlier. Of course, we know as the Nazis went into Poland, so did the Soviets. Yes, they did. The Soviets got the bigger hunk. So, you know, that's why I did a whole chapter in the book on the Russo, Nazi pact, because it's so important to how things take place. Yeah. Uh, this, this morning, former ambassador to Poland, Victor Ash, spoke at a group, I attended this morning, uh, Victor's an old friend. He was, ambassador to Poland, for George W. Bush. And, talked a little bit about this history to the group. But really sad history of Poland, hopefully now on a better track. How Will you give him a copy of my book? Oh, I most definitely will. I most definitely will. I think he might enjoy it. Oh, he would. He would. I was, uh, very fortunate when he was ambassador to be able to go to Warsaw and spend a couple days with, with the ambassador and his wife there at the residence. It's really, Learned a lot about the country. He learned a lot about the country and was a great ambassador, I think, so I will definitely get him a copy of your book. You know, I thought one of the, I really enjoyed doing the research in Lithuania and Hungary, Romania, and Poland itself. I think the pictures and the color, uh, the color section of the book really add to it. Oh, it does. It does. It's really, really well done. How, I always ask this question, uh, what's next? Are you working on anything right now? Well, you know i've done two poster books and I have the material to do a basically do a poster book on the relief posters Of world war time and I would probably should do that But i'm also interested in some other topics I served in an army security agency as a Low cryptography and mostly traffic analysis And there's no, I don't know that there'd be enough unclassified material, but there's almost nothing on my unit. I thought it might be fun to see what I could find out that might be disclassified and find out about what my unit, because you know, it has always been, you know, no such agency, it's hard to get material. Yes, that's right. That's right. Well, you know, there's things I'd like to, there's all kinds of things I'd like to know, but, uh, one of the new books that came out by, Jacobson, I think the woman is that does the good books on this. Oh, yes, Annie, Annie Jacobson, I believe. Yeah, yeah, she did a great book. One of the things I wanted to know in there, we would occasionally, in traffic analysis, we'd pick up code words. And I know what those code words are, but I can't tell you. But anyway, well, I really shouldn't. But anyway, I wondered what Amy had to say about those. Could there be any correlation between what I knew from, you know, the NSA was. What can you glean from the traffic? So what we glean from, but the point is this. We'd send those code words in our ComSec reports to Dern's and Director of National Security Agency. And we'd get back at Telex that said, leave it alone, it's a higher classification. Well, of course, that whetted our appetite. But we couldn't keep monitoring, you know. So anyway, Amy did sort of confirm for me what I think a couple of the code words really meant, because, you know, she was dealing with that classified material. 16 and 63 or so, but I very much enjoyed her book. Well, it's a complicated topic, and I hope I made it more understandable, and maybe this will get a few more people to read the book. I'm so glad you appreciate it. Consider supporting our work. We are a 501 c3 non profit. So this is Alan Lowe saying thank you and join us again soon and often on American POTUS.