American POTUS Remember the First Ladies with Diana Carlin, Anita McBride and Nancy Kegan Smith

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Welcome to American POTUS, a podcast devoted to the history of the Presidents and the Presidency. We're joined by the very best experts from around the globe, giving their perspectives on the history of the office and those who've held it. On this special episode, I'm joined by some great friends from the First Ladies Association of Research and Education, or FLARE, to discuss the terrific book they've written, titled, Remember the First Ladies, the Legacies of America's History Making Women. Diana Carlin is a professor emerita of communication at St. Louis University and a retired professor of communication studies at the University of Kansas. She is co author of the book, U. S. First Ladies, Making History and Leaving Legacies, and is a founder and current vice president of FLIR. Anita McBride is an executive in residence at American University's School of Public Affairs, where she directs the First Ladies Initiative. She served in the administrations of Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush, serving in the latter as First Lady Laura Bush's Chief of Staff. She's on the board of the White House Historical Association, and is a founder and board member of FLARE. And I must note, I got to know Anita when she was among the team that interviewed me, and gave, thankfully, the thumbs up to be director of the George W. Bush Presidential Library back in 2009. Nancy Keegan Smith was an archivist at the National Archives from 1973 until 2013, retiring there after serving as director of the Presidential Materials Division. She is co editor of Modern First Ladies, their documentary legacy, a book I've used a lot, and is the founder and the current president of FLIR. And very importantly also, Nancy was among the team that took a chance back in 1989 on a very young Alan and hired me to work at the Reagan Library. Great. So Diana, Anita, and Nancy, thanks so much for joining me on American Poetess. Thank you, Alan. I so enjoyed Remember the First Ladies. But, you know, there are numerous memoirs and biographies of first ladies out there, plus a lot of historical documentaries, some quite good. Why did you write this book? well, the way it came about was that I received an email almost four years ago now from a publisher that had asked me if I had a textbook idea to pitch, and at the time I suggested two, and one of them was this book on first ladies, because I'd been teaching about them for 30 years without a book, and I knew a lot of other friends who were doing the same thing. They loved the idea. And I said, I can't do this alone if we're going to do all of them, and I have two wonderful prospects as co authors. And when I said who they were and what their backgrounds were, they decided, yes, that was a good team to put together. So we first wrote the textbook, U. S. First Ladies Making History and Leaving Legacies. And our editor, uh, said, why didn't I learn any of this in school? Why is it now we're writing this first college textbook and the public needs to know this. So would you be interested then in turning it into what they call a trade book, which became, remember the first ladies, which has some similarities to the text, but a lot of new material, a lot of things went away. And our goal was really to look at The role of the first lady from Martha Washington to Dr. Biden, and to look at how it had changed, how did it stay the same. We had important themes that we wanted to discuss. So some of our chapters are thematic, but the overall theme was really what is this position and how has it changed? Really transpired throughout American history, and that's really the glue that holds it together, is looking at the things, like I said, that stayed the same, what have changed, the issues that some of these women, starting with Martha, have been interested in, all the way up to Jill Biden, such as veterans, so that was why we wrote it, and you know, there are biographies, as you said, but this is a look really more at the position and the women who've held it, and we only talked about the wives. Because we really believe that they're the ones who have the influence. And I think a lot of other historians, uh, such as Dr. Lewis Gould, who really started this whole area of First Lady's studies, has said the wives are the ones who have the influence. So that's, that's how it came about. A great result, by the way. Really, a fascinating book, an important book, I think. Mm hmm. What do you say? I'm not among these. I will say this. What do you say to those critics out there who say, well, the First Lady is really just the spouse of the President. How do you respond to them saying that the First Lady deserves serious attention by political scientists and historians and so forth Well, that's a great question, Alan, with a very simple answer. They are significant to our history. And if we talk about inclusive history in our country, how could we not include these women and their contributions for a lot of the points that Diana raised? We know they had influence. We know they were supportive of their husbands and the initiatives that their husbands were promoting. They had. Interests and ideas also of their own, and they really did help over the history of our country to help enact social change and help make contributions and in a way that really connected with Americans, and I think one of the points that Diana made to that the publishers even said, when putting the textbook together, that they never, you know, heard some of these stories. Well, students said this too. When that textbook was tested in about 5 different universities, students had the same response. Um, why did we never learn this before? So we know we were filling a gap in academic literature that was really important. We're pleased with the response. The more and more we get it out there, the more we realize we are really helping to respond to that question that you just asked. Why is it important that we study them? We study because it's significant to our history. Very much so. Let's go back in that history to the origins then, to the founding, the founding generation, Martha Washington and Abigail Adams. Dolly Madison, how did they work to establish some truly significant precedence in the office of First Lady? Well, Martha certainly had uncharted territory. So, Whatever she did, it was her choosing. However, it wasn't completely her choosing. You know, one of the things that makes this position unique is just the structure of our government, where the president is both the head of government and head of state. So the head of state responsibilities in other countries are handled by a monarchy, if you have one, or often it's the president versus the prime minister, who's government, president, state. So the more ceremonial functions, a lot of the diplomatic work, pardoning turkeys, whatever, you know, that's also part of the role of the president. And so the first lady has become an integral part of that. And George Washington made it very, very clear that this was a partnership. He and Martha had always had one. She'd been with him at the winter camps and she was called Lady Washington. First lady didn't really 1880s. We'll talk a little bit more about who was the first one called that. But when Martha. arrived about five weeks after George was inaugurated, he greeted her on in New Jersey, took her across to New York, our first capital, and handed her a list of assignments that he and his cabinet and staff had come up with. And she was supposed to on every Friday night have a levy to invite anyone who was dressed appropriately and he would stand off to the side and she was to greet people. And this was to be part of this Democratic Republic, that they were not monarchs. Average people could come in and see them. You didn't have to bow, you didn't have to have a special invitation. So that notion of hospitality, opening the President's home to the public, really began with Martha and George, and they did the same in Philadelphia. And she had causes that she was interested in. Veterans. Any veteran who wanted to see her, they got in. She gave her own money to veterans or to widows. She also supported women. You know, there's a wonderful book of her letters, and there would be women who were having hard times or who needed help starting a business or something, and Martha often did that out of her own pocket. She also was the one who You know, would provide the diplomacy during dinners. And there were a lot of people who wrote about how gracious she was. So those are the pieces that Martha really started. But I think the most important thing was what they did together. And that was saying, this is a partnership. She also supported him. For instance, he, he had a, a sist right after he became president and she attended the funeral of one of the generals. Representing him. So this notion of being a presidential surrogate really started with Martha. So they provided that foundation. And I'll turn it over to Nancy to talk about the next two. I think that we do need to mention that the minus with Martha was that she brought enslaved people into the White House. So while Martha was an incredible first lady, our book tries hard to balance the pluses and minuses. Abigail deferred vehemently. From, Martha on the issue of slavery, she was basically an ardent supporter of abolition and came from a Massachusetts, uh, congregational family. Her father was a minister and she just did not understand or agree with Martha on that. However, the two first ladies became very close and Abigail really respected what Martha had done. So the first thing that Abigail did when she became first lady is she wrote Martha asking for advice on how she should carry out the social function. Martha writes her back. Martha's very pleased by the way that Abigail asked her advice And Abigail essentially follows Martha's advice on receptions, where Abigail is a little different, is that she is, much more involved with John as an advisor, as a political advisor. And their correspondence became an incredible documentation of the early history of our country. Because Abigail was only with John actually in the people's house, in the head of government for half of his administration. She was either sick or with a sick daughter, the other half. And so they corresponded on all different policy issues. And before that, of course, Abigail wrote the famous letter in 1776, when John was in the Continental Congress, from which we sort of stole the title for our book, which is Remember the First Ladies. And she asked that they be kinder to them in what she was hoping would be, the Constitution than the ancestors. But it didn't turn out that way, because for ladies and their rights, women and their rights were not mentioned in either the Declaration or the Constitution. So in her correspondence, Abigail advises John on policy issues, but she doesn't just use her correspondence to advise John. She sends it to friends and even ministers with the big Abigail hint that if they might want to send this to a publisher, they should. So Abigail sort of becomes the first person. Uh, she's a very, uh, media first lady, and then she really, uh, sends her views, gets her views in the press. She also advised John on patronage issues, who he should hire, and who he shouldn't, and she had very strong views on that. And she advised John on the Alien and Sedition Act. Because by this time, when John Adams was the only Federalist president, the nation had two parties, the Democratic Republicans basically headed up by Jefferson, which believed in smaller government, agrarian economy, I'm making it very simplified, and the Federalists would believe in a stronger economy and a more centralized government. The alien and sedition acts prohibited dissension and criticism of the government. Jefferson was so upset when the alien and sedition acts were passed. He left the vice presidency and went home to Monticello. So, while Abigail did many good things as First Lady, part of her negative heritage is her support of those very punitive alien sedition acts, which some people say resulted in John Adams not being re elected. Dolly is an incredible first lady. She had a lot of experience just as Martha did in entertaining. She had filled in often as Thomas Jefferson's hostess when Madison was Jefferson's Secretary of State. And her one of her most enduring marks on first lady is she really created the idea of bipartisan entertaining. She invited her husband's foes along with his admirers and she invited a lot of people and her receptions were so crowded that they became known as squeezes. But she really started that function, which is still important today, and one would hope would come back, which is facilitating her husband's agenda by getting his foes and his admirers together in a cordial environment to encourage discussion. And Dolly was quite a counterpoint to James Madison, who was short, wore dark suits. because Dolly was tall, wore turbans, uh, French fashions and always wore a plume so people could identify her in the room, and she was apps. Absolutely charming. In fact, when you read about her even Madison's foes said that they couldn't resist Dolly Madison's charms. She was also beloved for saving George Washington's portrait in the White House when the British attacked during the 1812 war in 1814. And she really stayed till the very end. She also facilitated some key documents being removed. And it was so close to the British coming to the White House that the table was set for a function that for a dinner she was going to do, but then really had to leave because the British were coming. Her popularity was demonstrated by her funeral in 1849, which was really the first state funeral Washington, D. C. had seen, and President Taylor did a eulogy in which he said Dolly Madison was the first lady of the land. So while it wasn't used till later, he sort of started that idea. I see. Well, just think about the, the youth of our nation really. Dolly Madison died in 1849. Not that long before the Civil War. So really the, that continuity with, with the foundings there. So getting up to that Civil War, you know, I spent three Complicated years in, in Illinois as director of the Abraham Lincoln Library Museum and got to know a lot about Mary Lincoln. Where do you all stand on her complicated and ultimately tragic legacy? Well, those two words, complicated and tragic, I think are the two words that best describe Mary Lincoln. She, you know, if you stop and think, before she ever entered the White House, she'd already lost one child. She lost another child in the White House. And then she saw her husband assassinated right before her eyes. Uh, she had, she came into the White House under criticism because she was a Westerner. And the first ladies from the West who had preceded her had also been criticized. They were said to smoke corncob pipes. Rachel Jackson was just, you know, treated like this backwoods person and a bigamist and everything else. So when Mary came in, even Harriet Lane, who was James Buchanan's niece and served as his hostess, said publicly, and it was quoted in the Washington papers, that Mary Lincoln didn't deserve to be in the White House. He was an unsophisticated Westerner and didn't deserve to be in the White House. She spoke fluent French. She had studied philosophy. She was an incredibly well educated woman. So, so some of her complicated history is that she had to get past that. So she really felt that part of the way she would do that Transcribed by https: otter. ai is even though we were in the middle of a war, we needed to show we were strong. People needed to have something positive, so she did these lavish receptions and parties. She spent four years worth of allocations for renovating the White House in four months, and she found ways to hide her expenditures. She basically put her husband in debt, but at the same time, she was very supportive of the abolition movement. Out of her own pocket, she was supporting some of the freed men and women in the Washington area. Her seamstress was a freed woman, Elizabeth Keckley, who then wrote, a memoir about her years with Mary. So out of her own pocket, she was doing that, and she later wrote that the Emancipation Proclamation was one of her husband's greatest legacies. At the same time, she has stepbrothers and brothers fighting for the South. She's being accused of being a traitor to the South. And she's being accused of being a traitor to the North. And there were even suggestions that she was a spy. And Lincoln had to defend her. So, this was not an easy time or an easy position, but she was also going into hospitals. And she was writing letters for the wounded soldiers. She was tending to them. But a lot of her positives didn't get out in the press. It was all the negatives there were things written about her that she had overstepped her bounds as a First Lady. Like Abigail. She was doing, you know, suggesting appointments. Uh, but there was a different kind of press corps even then than what you had during Abigail's time. So, I think the way we come down on Mary is we've tried to show the complexities. We've tried to show the difficulties she was under and that, well, she maybe made some bad decisions. You could also understand within the context of the times why Mary was doing some of this. Well, you can put me on the side of an admirer of Mary Lincoln. Certainly, uh, sympathize with the terrible position she was in. I think a personal aside here, I think some modern historians have made a career out of making her into a punching bag, and I think it's. It's it overlooks a great amount that she contributed to this country and certainly to, uh, to President Lincoln's administration. So with that Alan Lowe statement, let's move on to another firstly, I got to know a little bit, about when I was a acting director up in Hyde Park, the Roosevelt library, and that's Eleanor Roosevelt. You stayed in the books that Eleanor was a first lady of first. Why, do you state that? Well, Eleanor really created the activist role of First Lady. And mind you, Eleanor did so much that we really could do the whole program on Eleanor, as we could on many of these First Ladies. But she also had 12 years, so we need to take that into account too. But she was seminal in her role in championing civil rights. human rights, women's rights, and helping the poor. And she traveled an incredible amount inside the United States and outside to foster these agenda items of hers. Eleanor really had two crises. that helped define her. 13 years after marriage and six children she discovered that FDR, who she loved dearly, was having an affair with no less than her social secretary, Lucy Mercer, and it was a huge crisis in their family. They considered divorce, FDR's mother, who was very strong willed, Sarah Roosevelt, told FDR that she would disinherit him if he got a divorce. And Eleanor was worried about the children, and so the agreement was that they would stay married, but that FDR would never ever have an affair again and would cut off the affair with Lucy Mercer. Of course, he really didn't keep that promise, but that was the promise. And Eleanor, in an odd way, it freed her up. She said herself that I have the memory of an orphan. I can forgive, but I cannot forget. And what happened was that Eleanor went on and became a very independent woman and very involved in local, state and national democratic politics, very involved in pushing for a variety of rights for the underprivileged. Then the second crisis happened in 1921 when FDR got polio. And she helped to nurse him back. So one thing I would say, Alan, is when people say they just had a political marriage after Lucy Mercer, I really think they had a political marriage, but they really cared deeply about her, each other. I think it is too simplistic to say that it was just a political marriage. After the polio, she encouraged FDR to get back into politics, and in 1932, he is elected president. While she was very happy for him, she said it was the one of the worst days of her life because she ended up having to give up all her many activities, including teaching, which she loved. And she felt like she was going to lose her independence. However, she, two days later, holds the first woman's press conference, the first lady's press conference, with all women press reporters, and she was supposed to only talk in that March 1933 conference about feminine things. But Eleanor manages to immediately get into substantive issues. She restricted the press conference to women reporters at Lorena Hickok, who was a journalist and a close friend, at her suggestion because Eleanor was told that women reporters in Washington, D. C. could not find the living reporting. For And so she stuck with that and ended up doing, uh, over 330 press conferences. She also became FDR's eyes and ears. traveled extensively supporting the National Youth Administration and other New Deal programs. Even went down into a coal mine in West Virginia. She was the first First Lady in 1940 to speak at a political party convention. She spoke at the DNC. She made very short comments. But they were extremely effective at unifying what had been a very tumultuous convention. She made numerous trips outside of the country, and the one that I would probably like to focus on is she made a five week trip to the South Pacific in 1943. And with that, and became the first First Lady to go to a war zone when she flew and visited injured soldiers in Guadalcanal. Civil rights, uh, again, Eleanor, as I said, we could take a long time, but Eleanor was a stronger advocate for civil rights than her husband. And consistently fought racial discrimination and prejudice. And there are so many examples. She was a member of the local NAACP, the Urban League co chair of Abolish, the Poll Tax, convened the National Conference of Negro Women, but the biggest one that was so effective was when Marian Anderson, a black opera singer, was denied performing at, Constitution Hall. By the Daughters of the American Revolution, Eleanor resigned from the D. A. R. and arranged for Marian Anderson to sing in front of the Lincoln Memorial. And that was the single biggest civil rights event of its time. 70, 000 people, and it made a huge point. Eleanor became such a strong supporter of civil rights, saying one of the main destroyers of freedom is our attitude toward the colored race. And the Ku Klux Klan ended up putting a bounty of 25, 000 on her head. Then, you would think after 1945, when F. T. R. dies, she would stop. Certainly her children were hopeful, but Harry Truman appoints her to be on the United Nations delegation. And Eleanor actually said that her work on the UN, on the Human Rights Commission was the most important work she felt she had done. And she served as chair and headed the writing of the U. S. Declaration of Human Rights passed in December of 1948. During all of these activities. I just don't think Eleanor ever slept. She authored over 28 books, hundreds of articles, six serial columns, 12 radio programs, and TV. The most successful of which was her My Day column, which she started in 1936. She and continued until six weeks before she died. And in that column, she would really give her own personal opinions and political opinions and talk to women all over the country. So, just to quickly do a whirlwind, she was an incredible first lady and paved the way for so many firsts for a first lady. Yeah, an extraordinary person for sure. So many enduring legacies to this very day. Another First Lady that fascinates so many and has an enduring legacy as well is Jacqueline Kennedy. I know you talk some in the book about how she worked to change the style of the White House and its preservation. So can you comment a bit on that Sure, I'll comment on that for you, Alan. But I'd like to add one thing about Eleanor Roosevelt as I could that responds to your question about her, external outreach, her outreach to the public. You know, one of the things that she really also did was encourage Americans to write to the president. And to write to her and it really, you know, uh, ultimately it resulted in a very robust correspondence operation, a large operation. She responded to many things personally, but there were people on the staff who did so as well. I raise this because when I was hired to the White House for my first job in the Reagan administration, it was as a mail analyst. So read the mail. The person who trained me to read the mail was hired in the Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration. She was still working there then. She was hired in early 1945, late 1944. It's just incredible. But anyway, it just made me think about other ways. Eleanor Roosevelt reached the public besides the obvious ones that we know. But on Jackie Kennedy, here was, First lady, not too long after Eleanor Roosevelt, just, you know, 20 years or so less, um, and step back from activism. In fact, in our book, she is one of the four first ladies that we have in a chapter that is exactly that, stepping back from activism. Uh, But she still made enormous contribution and one that is very long lasting. Her care and interest in preservation of the White House, not only preserving the collections and, and maintain and acquiring artifacts that belong to the White House that have been lost for various reasons, but also to teach, The stories about the history of the White House, why it was important for Americans to see this as a integral part of our history, using the White House as a global stage. One of the major ways that she did this too really was Her walk and talk tour of the white house on February 14th, 1962, millions of Americans watched that tour of the white house by Jackie Kennedy, who without a note in front of her and without skipping a beat, went room by room artifact by artifact to explain what she was doing. Cause there was some criticism by her husband and her husband's advisors. to take on an issue of historic preservation. They worried it sounded elitist, that it would be more harmful to President Kennedy and his, um, uh, interest in administration than it would be helpful. But that walk and talk where so many Americans in their own living room, on their little TVs, Felt this enormous connection to the white house. She did that. And she also established what is one of the greatest first lady legacies is establishing the white house historical association in 1961, still going. It's the funding arm, fully funds all the restorations and acquisitions to the White House. Jackie Kennedy knew there would never be enough government money to do the things that needed to be done to preserve and protect. The White House and to acquire what belongs in there. So by establishing this, which is still going and she did it. Also, she helped to raise the money in addition to raising awareness about the White House in this education effort that she had. She helped by raising the money by having the first guidebook to the White House written that she sold where they sold for a dollar for every tourist that came through the White House. It raised so much money. That book is still going. It's in its 24th or 25th printing. It's constantly updated, of course. But what an incredible legacy that she felt it was. Not only about protecting the White House, but also of the education aspect. And that still is one of the core missions of the White House Historical Association, is teaching and telling the stories at all levels, from young people, to adults about the history of the White House, the people that lived in work there, the important events that happened there. Again, so people would feel, Americans would feel connected to it, but also understand the importance of preserving it. So it was, you know, she had a tremendous sense of humor. style and elegance. Of course, she saw the White House as a global stage and that it should be used at this. Of course, she did, you know, the, the trip to, uh, Europe with her husband in 1961, seeing all these magnificent palaces. She was cultured already. She had studied Course in French and spoke French, but why not the White House? This important historic home with the American president should be seen on the same way. So beyond the internal, restorations to the White House, really putting into place what would eventually be the first curator of the White House. She also cared about what the exterior looked like. The gardens of the White House, the Rose Garden, worked with Bunny Mellon and the president to design what would be an outdoor public and global stage, as well. So just incredible influence brought her sense of style and really left something in place that is permanent. And we all benefit from that. I have such great admiration for the work of the White House Historical Association. And I must say, Anita, I grew up in a household that revered the Kennedys. The story was, I was a bit younger, but my father said that when Kennedy was in the White House, my mother made it very clear that if he came calling, she would be gone. So Jackie, Jackie would have had some competition. Men feel bad about Jackie too. Exactly, exactly. But again, an enduring legacy that she's left. And thankfully today that White House is an amazing place to visit and so wonderfully maintained. And every, may I say, every First Lady after her has continued this very important connection and relationship with the White House Historical Association. It's a wonderful example of really how an important initiative established by a First Lady can continue no matter what. Who the party is in power. Now, Nancy Smith, I'm going to turn to you to talk about another First Lady of Firsts, Lady Bird Johnson. But I know, Nancy, you could talk all day about Lady Bird Johnson as well. So, so can you tell us, perhaps, let's just focus on, you say in the book that Lady Bird changed the model of the First Lady's press function. Can you perhaps just specifically talk about that in Lady Bird Johnson? Yes. Lady Bird, of course, came to being first lady in the most awful way with the assassination of President Kennedy. But she did immediately in December of 1963, hired Liz Carpenter to be both her press secretary and staff director. And Liz was the first professional. Press secretary hired by a first lady. Liz had been a professional reporter. Jackie Kennedy had a press secretary who was not a professional and who she really said she would like that press secretary to learn to say no politely. So Mrs Johnson hired the first professional press secretary, Liz, and also, I think to this day, remains the only first lady who had a degree in journalism and had managed radio and television owned and managed radio and television stations, so it's important to note that Lady Bird felt very comfortable with the media and had a lot of friends. in the media, all of whom she Liz use very effectively. And I do want to make a larger point about first ladies. There are first ladies like Pat Nixon. Who have really not gotten their credit, but you have to look at it both in terms of history, but also in terms of whether that first lady engages with the press or not, because the press, as Mrs Johnson and Liz knew, were one way of making your message and advertising your message from a little place to a much larger place. And they were extremely effective at doing that. Mrs. Johnson made the staffing for Lissa's office, her office, more robust. And they used the press, as I said, they invited the press on the whistle stop campaign, her incredible campaign to go through the south on civil rights. In October of 1964, they were originally inviting 50 and they had over 200. The train was so crowded. It was incredible, and they alerted press all along the way, so the whistle stop campaign got huge coverage. They also created these wonderful events in national parks. And you know, they had all these rafts, which where they fly the press in and then for example, a big band go rafting and go hiking. One reporter took a red umbrella with her while she was trying to hike. And Mrs Johnson actually helped pull someone who had fallen off a raft back onto a raft. taking them along and carefully planning these events. Help get them incredible press and also she took press on trips to advertise Lyndon Johnson's Um, she was involved in a number of great society programs like going to Appalachia. They trekked up a hill to meet a family, and so she said at the end of her 1968, she talked to the press and said that she really wanted to thank them for getting her message on beautification, on, civil rights, on, the importance of, you know, uh, the great society programs out to a much larger group, and she felt of them as friends. And as Liz said, they really wanted to use the press to get from the society page to the front page, which often they were very effective at. It's very interesting to look at Mrs. Johnson's press relations versus those of President Johnson's. Um, uh, and I'm very proud of him for this because he was renowned for not having particularly effective press relations, whereas she did, and she actually at one point gave him some pointers on how to handle himself in a press conference which is preserved in a wonderful Johnson tape that I highly encourage people to listen to if they haven't heard it. But she was masterful with Liz, it was a two part group in press relations and in, in demonstrating how important that function would be for future first ladies should they choose to use it. And certainly, uh, if our listeners have not listened to the Johnson tapes, immediately go do that. It's an amazing history captured on those tapes, uh, uh, very serious things and very funny things as well. So, uh, another First Lady that. I had real candor with press and with the public about her duties, about her life, was Betty Ford. So can you talk a bit, perhaps Diana, about what topics she specifically brought into the light and how she did that? Well, there were two that I think really stand out when you stop and think she only had 17 months in office and she's one of those first ladies who has shown that that position can transcend the time in the White House because of everything she did afterwards. But a month after Gerald Ford came into office 50 years ago, she was diagnosed with breast cancer at the time. You could not say breast. on the air or write it in a newspaper. No one used the word cancer. If anyone had cancer, the word was not used in any news release or whatever. And she decided that If she had been going along with her life, everything was fine, and then she has a regular annual checkup, and they discovered this lump that there must be thousands of other women who also have undetected breast cancer, and she felt like she had this platform. So she decided to make it public. And she did. So it was reported. They used the word breast cancer. They had photos of her sitting in bed talking to the president, Bob Hope. There were all these celebrities in there chatting with her. And there's that iconic photograph because there were a lot of concerns women had. If they had a mastectomy, what was going to happen to muscles? And so when she's leaving the hospital, she's throwing a football to Gerald Ford. Sort of honor his football background and so she's showing that she has this mobility and this is right when she's leaving the hospital like a week later and she went on, you know, to do her job. And then the other thing that she really spent time on was the ERA. Pat Nixon had been a proponent of the ERA, and when the Nixons left, Betty Ford took that on. And this was at the point where they were trying to get state legislatures to approve the ERA. And so she was making calls to legislators in key states that hadn't approved it yet. There were protests. This is the one thing. The cabinet wasn't happy with how outspoken she was about this issue. It was also in 1975, the International Year of the Woman, and she had this, there was this executive order signed. So she was very much out front, and this is during the period when women's lib was a big deal and there was beginning to be pushback. So they were complaining that she was using taxpayer dollars to influence public policy. So she had her own phone installed. And there's a picture of her in our book at her desk. With the don't tread on me flag on the front of the desk using the telephone she paid for to call state legislatures to try to get the ERA passed. Then she gave the 60 Minutes interview where she talked about everything, talked about family. And it really made them look like a family, that these were Americans that had the same kinds of issues going on with their kids that everybody else did. And I think that was important for everybody to see the first family. Just like we said, Mary Lincoln had been through tragedies that other people had, that all first families are people, they're families, they're human. So those were three important things. Then post White House, her coming out about her addiction, her prescription drug and alcohol addiction. which Rosalynn Carter later did on health care, uh, with both of them testifying in, in the 1990s. So her legacy with the Hazelden Betty Ford center is going to live on for a long time, just as it already has. So she's affected people's health in many direct ways Very true. Very true. Now, Anita, I want to turn to you next. Uh, of course, you, you know, uh, Laura Bush much better than I ever will, but I was so fortunate to be able to work with her in Dallas. As we created the George W. Bush Library and Museum and was fortunate during that several times to meet First Lady Barbara Bush. How would you characterize the similarities and differences in how they approached their role as First Lady Well, in the similarities category, of course, they both cared about the issue of education and literacy, and they really devoted their lives to these two initiatives. Barbara, I mean, Bush, uh, within just weeks of becoming first lady. And even while she was second lady, you know, worked so diligently on literacy issues, hosted so many events when she was in the vice president's office, in the vice president's residence. And when she became first lady within weeks establishes the Barbara Bush foundation for family literacy which is still going to this day, raising millions of dollars and, and supporting programs in all 50 states. In fact, next year, Juneau is her centennial, would be her centennial. And there are a lot of events that will be planned around promoting what Barbara Bush did as first lady with literacy, Laura Bush, of course, served. As a teacher in public schools and as a librarian care deeply about these issues. She too, within weeks of becoming first lady in 2001, established the Laura Bush Foundation for America's library still exists. Still raising money, still giving grants to schools in all 50 states to build their collections. In fact, when Nancy, Diana and I were in Arkansas at the Clinton library in May to do an event on our book, we went to a local high school, they're a charter high school and the librarian at that high school got up very emotional saying she was the librarian at a Very small elementary school in Little Rock that got one of the first Laura Bush grants and how much, and she turned to the students that were in that auditorium and said, if you went to that school, it's, it contributed to you being here now. I mean, again, you think about the legacy and the things that That live on that first ladies tried to do. So that's where there are similarities. They cared, about education. They cared about literacy where, where things are different, of course, where the times in which they serve naturally, but Barbara Bush would never really, although she was married to one of the world's greatest diplomats and very much supported all of George Bush's work when he served at the UN, of course, when he, he was envoy to China, she was there. But she never would have imagined herself doing the kind of global work that Laura Bush did during those years in the White House. And why was that? Of course, because of the times in which we live. Post 9 11, there was a complete pivot, as you know, Alan, from, you know, The domestic focus, education reform, which Laura Bush was involved in, to post 9 11, it was the war on terror. And Laura Bush played a role in that and spoke out on Afghan women, traveled all over Africa and the president's global health initiatives. I remember talking to Barbara Bush about that she so admired her daughter in law for all that she did internationally. That it was just not something she had to think about, but I think all in all, Laura Bush looked up to her mother in law as someone that she learned a great deal from. I mean, Laura Bush was so lucky to have come into the White House really better prepared. Then almost anyone before her, uh, given the exposure and experience, she had a visiting there, staying there, knowing the white house staff, the resident staff, knowing how things got done. Even so she would tell you, nothing prepares you for stepping into that role. But, the, the two of them, you know, unique experience in our history, obviously because Abigail Adams never lived to see her son become president. So was not really able to guide her daughter in law on being first lady. But I think at the end of the day, even though Laura Bush never really liked politics, Barbara Bush did, they both liked people and they use that love of, people in a way to really connect on a very authentic level. Really an incredible experience getting to know them even a little bit and to recognize that that legacy they both have. I don't know if you recall Anita that day when the president gave me the thumbs up to be director and Laura was there, Mrs. Bush was there. He said, you're going to work with both of us a lot, but you'll like her better I remember it in the, uh, in the Oval Office, your meeting there, she was part of it, no doubt about it. And it tells you something, both presidents really in admired, trusted and needed their wives. This is, we talk about this in our book. Some of how our first, the first ladies were successful is how their husbands viewed their role. And in this case, George H. W. Bush, definitely. And George W. Bush as well. depended on their first ladies, depended on their spouses to help them and gave them a wide berth. Alan. I just want to say spring boarding off of the point that Anita was making that we make the point in our book that these men were very, very lucky because they married women who Evolved the role and did so much and they did not have to do that. And they'd done so many special things and left legacies in so many different areas. And so they were probably one of the best decisions most of these precedents made were who they married. Yeah, I think that's very, very true. And as you talk about those, those contributions their roles in the White House, you know, that role in the East wing of the White House today, it's become more and more formalized. How many staff members today approximately work? In that east wing and how do they relate to those in the west wing? Well, the numbers have certainly grown over time. You know, we talked the first formal position for a first lady was Edith Roosevelt hiring the first social secretary. And then of course it evolved from, you heard Nancy talk about Mrs. Johnson hiring the first real professional, journalist to be press secretary. Jackie Kennedy before her had a press assistant. Um, but, uh, and that was the first time there was really a dedicated person for the first lady. But it certainly has grown since then. And the pivotal moment for office of the first lady was 1978 under George W. Bush. Rosalynn Carter, who was really a driving force behind expanding the staff. And, and the White House Personnel Authorization Act was signed in 1978 in the Carter administration, which really formalized the office of First Lady. There was a budget assigned to the office, but interestingly enough, and still to this day, the staff of the First Lady are considered Employees of the president assigned to the first lady, because she's still not in a 50 role is still not an official role. There's, there was no statutory role for it. Of course, over time, the integrated relationship between West wing and East wing is very important. And when the staffs coordinate, it's really best for both principles and having worked there, you know, three different times, I've seen that evolution. firsthand. But I will say this, that what's really important about it for both the first lady and her staff is recognizing they're there for the president. They're there to support the goals of the administration And they find and identify the ways that they can do that. Ways that are authentic to them, the work that the first lady engages in, of course, as she has experience in and how that supports the president and when the West wing staff recognizes that, that the first lady and her staff is there to support him, it works really well when we have examples in, in history when the first lady is a distraction. Or they get a lot of negative press and it hurts the president. That is difficult. It happened to Mrs. Reagan. It certainly happened to Mrs. Clinton after healthcare reform failed. Uh, that was difficult. But she made a pivot too. And chose issues working on women's issues, global women's issues that she continues to work on till this day, you know, where she found a footing, and, you know, things work better internally, but it's really important that the interaction between West Wing and East Wing is coordinated. You don't want the first lady to be a distraction and you certainly don't want her to be off message. But again, we all credit and in our book, we really do credit Rosalynn Carter, who incidentally, this is where her greatest conflicts were with her husband, he campaigned on cutting the white house staff. She's arguing to expand it because of the things she was engaged in mental health commission and, you know, and then globally how engaged she was as well. You know, she put in place a structure. All of us who have worked there since are very grateful for, What about the roles and responsibilities of this office? Are going to change or stay the same when we when we have our first first gentleman, how will that work? Well, it, you know, we talked about this and as a nation in 2008, we came close when Hillary Clinton was running for president and, and her spouse would have been the first gentleman. He also would have been a former president and we are big believers the white house will adapt. to the changes. It has to. It has shown the evolution through history that it has adapted to all of its occupants. We know we have this opportunity, right, or possibility right in front of us right now with the announcement that Kamala Harris is, is running as a democratic nominee. Her husband has already served a second gentleman. He's given us a window. Into how he would adapt to the role by first and foremost, always saying in his interviews, his first job is to support his wife, which is something that first ladies say about the president's, again, recognizing they're the elected official, but he also had carved out an initiative that the white house, that the president's team handed to him on antisemitism and had been an advocate and a leading voice for that issue in the Biden administration, he also continued to work. I mean, he left his law firm, but he continued to work as a college professor at Georgetown university in the law school. Uh, the way Dr Biden continued to work as a college professor. So again, the position evolves with each occupant and involves as the country's evolving. We'll have to call it something different. It may change the name of our association as well. That studies first ladies. But I personally feel and I think Nancy and Diana would agree with me that A lot of the responsibilities will be the same. First and foremost, support the president, choose initiatives you can engage on. There is a ceremonial element to the role, whether you're male or female, that will come with it may have to change, you know, a little bit how the social office works. But the White House is a very adaptable place. now you mentioned the association as we get ready to close out Can you all tell me a bit more about the mission and the programs of flair as its name for now? At least what what does flair do and what is its mission? Well, thank you, Alan. Flair was formed the First Lady's Association for Research and Education in June of 2021, and it is an interdisciplinary group of scholars, general public, biographers, journalists, historians, political scientists, communication scholars. a whole group of people who are very interested in First Ladies. And of course, in this election year, we have been very busy giving interviews and articles because First Ladies and their role have been so key. And so we ask that anyone interested go to flair net. org. We would encourage membership. We have lifetime institutional members, 11 of them, including the White House Historical Association, the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Foundation, the Bush Institute, the National Archives and Records Administration, just to, To name a few, we do featured presentations, virtually. There's one coming up at the end of this month on Dolly Madison. So again, please go to You can go to flair dash net dot org because those presentations are open to the public. We have social hours, which really allow important networking that did not occur before. Flare's establishment where people can let people know what they're working on and other people can tap on their knowledge. We have speakers Bureau. We have Coming up and exciting. The first journal ever on first ladies should be coming online soon. It's an E journal. And in this year we did our first national conference in April, uh, 2020 forward in celebration of Betty Ford and her historic 1984 conference. And we were co sponsors. of luncheon with Susan Ford invited, and Dr Biden was the keynote speakers. So it was very nice way to open in our first national conference, and we certainly plan on doing more. So that gives you, I know we're running low on time that gives you a whirlwind, uh, flair. Well, thank you Nancy, a really important work that flair is doing Really great to have you all on american potus today. Diana. I need a nancy. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Thank you. We're delighted. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you, Alan I want to thank everyone also for listening. Please visit AmericanPOTUS. org and consider supporting our work there. Thank you and join us on the next American POTUS.