American POTUS - Awakening the Spirit of American: FDR's War of Words with Charles Lindbergh and the Battle to Save Democracy - Paul Sparrow

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Transcript

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 0:27

Welcome to American POTUS, where we're devoted to the history of the Presidents and the Presidency. We're joined by the very best experts from around the globe, giving their perspectives on the history of the office and those who've held it. I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and on this episode, I'm joined by my friend, Paul Sparrow. I got to know Paul when he was named Director of the wonderful Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library Museum in Hyde Park, New York, where he served for many years. Prior to that, he was Deputy Director and Senior Vice President at the museum in Washington, D. C. Paul also has been an Emmy award winning documentary and television producer. He now is a historical consultant and writer, and he's written a wonderful book that we're going to discuss today titled Awakening the Spirit of America, FDR's War of Words with Charles Lindbergh and the Battle to Save Democracy. Paul, thanks so much for joining us on American POTUS.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 1:19

Thank you for having me, Alan. And this is a great podcast. I really love it. You cover a lot of details and you have wonderful guests on.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 1:26

Well, thank you so much. And I have a wonderful guest today. It's great to catch up with you. And I've really enjoyed Awakening the Spirit of America. Really a terrific book, Paul. Thank you for it.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 1:35

Thank you.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 1:36

So let's get back to the very, very beginning here. And you know, something I wondered, I went into this book as, you know, knowing a little bit about FDR, but not that much about Charles Lindbergh. And I wondered as I started reading, you know, how much did FDR and Lindbergh know each other? Before this battle of words and ideas began,

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 1:55

They really didn't have much contact prior to this. You know, when Lindbergh, made his famous flight, across the Atlantic to Paris in 1927, FDR was still sort of in his wilderness years in his recovery period from, from polio. But, uh, And so he wasn't really on the national stage. He became governor of New York in 1928, but they never really crossed paths, uh, during that period. And then after Lindbergh's son was kidnapped and murdered, when 1932, the same year FDR became president, then he became this target of intense media and tabloid, uh, attention. And so, uh, Charles Lindbergh and his wife moved. Out of the country and lived in England and Europe for a number of years, so he didn't really return back to the United States until early 1939, at which point in April of 1939, he did visit FDR at the White House, and this was really their first meeting, and it's very interesting in his, uh, uh, diary and Lindbergh describes their meeting. And he says, you know, uh, I think I can get along with him. He's very personable, very charming, great conversationalists. I just don't know if I trust him. Um, and so right off the bat, there's a little bit of this difference. And of course, by 1939 FDR sort of, Pro, intervention attitude had become fairly well known. This is before the war started and Lindbergh, even then, I think had pretty pro isolationist points of view.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 3:20

I think it's kind of difficult for us now to recognize that kind of the depth and the breadth of Lindbergh's popularity, his fame around the world, can you give us maybe some idea of how iconic he was here and across the globe when this story begins?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 3:35

well, in 1927, he makes the flight, he becomes probably one of the most famous people in the world. I mean, his fame and celebrity transcended national boundaries, to give you an example. So, uh, later on in 1927, he decides to embark on this. A multinational goodwill tour to Central and South America. And his first stop is Mexico. So he flies to Mexico city. And it's a big news that he's coming and 150, 000 people and the entire Mexico city police force, plus a number of national guard and, soldiers come to the airport. to see him arrive. And it's absolutely a mob scene. So this is Mexico City, you know, 150, 000 people turning up for him. So that gives you some sense. and then of course he was the first everyday hero of aviation era. His flight was Extraordinarily complicated and difficult and courageous. And he was also an aviation genius. So he becomes a very important spokesperson for the aviation industry in those early years. Uh, and then of course his celebrity is only magnified enormously after the tragic kidnapping and murder of his son. And so he becomes, he and his wife become these tabloid targets. So I would say, you know, one of the four or five most famous people in the world. during that period.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 4:58

So when you look at the, the opposition that was starting to grow to Roosevelt's seeming interventionist policies, or at least thoughts at that point, prior to the war starting, was he the most influential of those, the most vocal opponent of the president in that regard?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 5:14

Well, it's, it's interesting because it evolves over time. I mean, first of all, no one of him as an isolationist. He was not political. He had not given a radio speech in almost 10 years. You know, when he first reappears back on the scene. And so when Germany invades, Poland, in 1939, September 1939. And it becomes obvious that there's this momentum for America to take sides with the Allies. That's when he decides to step up and start doing these radio broadcasts and speeches in which he articulates, uh, very clearly and calmly and in a very, very, uh, reasonable tone with very logical arguments that the United States shouldn't get involved in European affairs, that we are protected by two oceans. We really don't need to get involved in this. Uh, and he sort of, inserts himself into this conversation and it's very unusual in American history for a celebrity, nonpolitical celebrity, to to insert himself into a political debate like this and take on the president of the United States. Now there were a lot of very, very powerful isolationists, you know, William Randolph Hearst, the newspaper publisher, Henry Ford, one of the richest industrial titans in the world. Uh, Colonel McCormick, who ran the Chicago Tribune and WGN radio station. There were a number of very, very rich. Powerful men who believed America should not get involved in this war and in fact had business dealings and ownerships and sympathy with the Nazi German government. Particularly people like Henry Ford who had many factories over there and was awarded one of the great German medals for his support of Nazi Germany. And then there were a number of very powerful politicians. Senator Burton Wheeler, who was a Democrat, was one of the most outspoken isolationists, as was Robert Taft, the Senator Taft and, uh, Hamilton Fish, who I think we'll probably get into later, who was a congressman who represented FDR's home district and who was a Republican.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 7:10

And you noted people like Ford seeming to have a preference for Germany in some of that. Not all of it obviously was business related, but with Lindbergh, I was really shocked in reading this book of how much that preference really was there, that he saw that system as preferable to what we had. So can you tell us a bit about that? Where did that preference for a kind of a non democratic type of government come from with Lindbergh and those around him?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 7:37

Well, it's interesting because as I said, when he went to Europe, Because of the media hounding him in the United States, um, he traveled quite a bit. And he first landed in England. He and his wife lived in England for a while. Then they lived in France. And he saw England and France as these sort of decaying democracies. You know, everybody was still just sort of coming out of the Great Depression. Uh, but he saw them as, uh, lethargic and basically living on the glories of their past. And then of course, because Germany at that point in the mid 1930s was developing their, military capabilities in violation of the treaties that ended World War I. They were doing a lot of development of their air force, the Luftwaffe. And of course, Lindbergh was one of the great. Aviation experts in the world. So both for propaganda reasons and for technical reasons, they would invite, Lindbergh to come to Germany and visit their facilities or aviation facilities, fly their planes. And Lindbergh was extremely impressed with the dynamism and the activity and the energy he saw in Germany, this resurgent economy, this dynamic industry, and this very, very superior technology that the Germans were bringing to their airplanes. And of course now he was very open about this. There's nothing secret. He would report, Colonel Smith, who was the military attache, the U. S. military attache in Berlin. Whenever Lindbergh would go to Germany and fly these planes and visit the aviation facilities, he would report, to Smith at the American embassy and give a detailed report about the state of the U. S. German aviation, which was very, very valuable. Matter of fact, he was probably the most valuable source for American intelligence. Of course, there was no American intelligence. There was no CIA or anything like that then. and our air force consisted of less than 2000 planes. We only had 225, 000 soldiers in our standing army. We had a semi decent Navy, but we were like ranked 18th or 19th in the world in terms of our military capability. And we were very far behind in our. design and manufacturing techniques. So this was very valuable information. And I think that's really when he bonded with this autocratic, highly disciplined, very efficient society. Which when he was there he received the German Eagle cross just two weeks before Kristallnacht, you know, Goring himself presented the medal to him at an American embassy event. Just two weeks before Kristallnacht in 1938, which of course was the terrible attacks on Jewish businesses and Jewish civilians and the beginning of moving Jews into concentration camps. And it was after that, in November, 1938, that he and his wife decided, okay, we need to probably move back to the United States now. But he brought with him just enormous respect for the Nazi, society.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 10:23

Well, how did he respond in seeing those oppressions of Jews and other opponents of the Nazi government?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 10:29

Well, he and his wife both sort of, you know, it's unfortunate treatment and he didn't approve of the treatment and he, spoke out in opposition to it. But you see in his writings in his diaries, in his speeches, you see this anti Semitic thread. At first it's somewhat subtle, but it becomes more and more obvious until it becomes outright blatantly anti Semitic. You know, he starts by talking about the small minority of Americans who control our media and the propaganda they're feeding the Americans, and people are being misled by this small minority. And then finally, in the end, he just comes right out and says, you know, the three forces that are trying to drive us into this war are the British government, the Roosevelt administration and the Jews,

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 11:06

Mm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 11:06

going to be bad for the Jews so he just comes right out and says that. And of course, you know, check, the truth is less than 3 percent of the media properties in the United States were owned by Jews during this period.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 11:18

Mm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 11:18

Now, there were some very high profile Jewish ownership of Hollywood studios and things, but this was all just

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 11:27

Uh, leaving aside the horrible anti Semitism and the respect for the autocratic nature of the government, uh, Lindbergh, along with other isolationists, seem to have this feeling of Invulnerability from attack because of the oceans, but I, I wondered, before and certainly when reading your book Limburg of all people, why did he believe that he had flown across the Atlantic for goodness sake? He knew that the worlds were coming together. Uh, why did he still have that belief that isolationism was even possible on this day and age?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 11:57

That's a great question. And one that I can't answer because you're right. There is no logic to it, especially from a person who understood that the new generation of German bombers were capable of flying, you know, thousand plus miles, and, uh, this new generation of German fighters were highly effective and you had battleships that you'd already seen the emergence of aircraft carriers. So there was no logic to it, but again, it was consistent His point of view, which was that America should not get involved and his three rationales were, we're protected by two oceans. We're a very large country with a large population and we're heavily industrial. No one would ever dare to attack us. and he ignored the idea that America had a role to play as a protector of democracy. And that's one of the big issues, the sort of right and wrong issue that. Roosevelt was most concerned with, which was that he felt that this was a battle of good versus evil. And Lindbergh just very specifically denied and rejected that argument.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 12:55

And one of those groups that Lindbergh worked with eventually was something called the America First Committee. Can you tell us about that and what Lindbergh's role became in that committee?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 13:05

Sure. And it's an interesting story because it started out in September of 1940 on the Yale campus. It was really a student anti war group, not unlike the student anti war groups against the Vietnam war in the 1960s. although it was. Labeled as isolationists, they really were, it was more about, they were anti war. They didn't think America should do anything to prolong this war or to get involved in this war. And there were a number of people who went on to be very moderate or liberals who were part of the initial core group. You know, Gerald Ford went on to be president. Potter Stewart became a Supreme Court justice. Sergeant Shriver led the Peace Corps. They were all students at Yale at the time. And they were part of the initial sort of formulation. But then as it launched and became public, they brought in, A colonel who was the head of Sears and Roebuck company who sort of took over, who was very anti Semitic. And the headquarters moved to Chicago where McCormick was involved. And then as it grew and became more virulently anti Roosevelt as well as anti war the anti Semitism and the pro Nazi groups became involved. And remember 1940 is an election year. So there's enormous political turmoil. because, know, FDR decides to run for an unprecedented third term violating George Washington's initial decision to limit a presidential term to two. And that there is this sense that Germany is going to win. Britain has no hope. Why are we supporting Britain? We should be backing Germany. The obvious winner,

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 14:38

So the initial pushback against FDR from Lindbergh, the America First Committee, all these others, how did he start to counter those voices of opposition in those years before we were actually in the war?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 14:54

but it's a great question. And it's, it's interesting because the, you have to have a little historical context here, right? Because he had served from March of 1933, taking over the height of the great depression, the bank crisis, all that stuff. So for six years, America had been slowly clawing its way out of this horrific economic catastrophe. You know, the 25 percent unemployment, people living in the streets, there was no social security. There was no welfare. There was no food dependent children. If you were broke and lost your job, you got kicked out of your house. You lived on the street. I mean, the conditions were terrible and there was a lot of resentment against particularly France and England because they hadn't fully paid off their world war one debts. And the failure of some of those payments are one of the things that led to, you know, the stock market crash in 1929. So there was resentment about that. And there was also an anti Semitic component, which was that we had been dragged into world war one by manipulation by international bankers, which of course is a code word for the Jewish business cabal that allegedly runs the world. So all those factors were at play. In addition to this Unfortunately, persistent anti immigrant thread that runs throughout American history. You know, 1924, the Congress passed a whole new set of immigration quotas. The Chinese Exclusionary Act, where Chinese people weren't allowed to come. There was legislation preventing Japanese citizens from becoming American citizens. They would, they would have to remain, Japanese citizens, even if their children were born in this country and became American citizens. So there was enormous anti immigrant sentiment, because of the Great Depression. So that was all sort of the base. And then when the war breaks out, this idea of who are we going to support and why can't we just stay out of it? Let's not get dragged into another one of these European land wars. At that point, although it was obvious that the Germans were abusing They're Jewish citizens. horrors hadn't come out yet. People didn't really know or even really believe that Germany was going to do the things they said they were going to do. really going to annihilate all the Jews in Europe. Yeah, well, that was their plan, but people didn't believe it. So, and some people looked at Germany and said, look, they, you know, they've got Full employment. You know, they've got this dynamic leader. Look at Italy, Mussolini. He's dragged that country out of depression. Maybe there's something to this totalitarian regime. Maybe we need a strong man as our leader.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 17:22

So FDR, how did he, at that point, early on, you, you talk about people like Harry Hopkins and Robert Sherwood, Sam Roseman, and others that helped him start to counter the attacks from Limburg and others. And you mentioned these wonderful speeches, by the way. I know we, I want to go into several of those, but can you tell us a bit maybe about that, Troy? Of of Hopkins, sir? Sir. Wood and Rosan. And how they worked with FDR to help counter those attacks.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 17:48

Well, those three men played. Exactly into the question, the beginning of your question, which is how did FDR respond? Uh, and so starting in 1939, we'll start in September again when the war starts about 70 percent of Americans didn't want to get involved. And so FDR knew that his vision that, uh, It's America's responsibility to help other democracies was going up against public opinion. So he knew he had to be cautious and go slowly and convince the American public, to understand their role as the protector of democracy. You know, he called it the soul of America, the spirit of America, the idea that we are a country based on immigrants and on freedom. And our core value is our willingness to fight for freedom. So when almost every speech he gives, he works at, and he works in Washington and Lincoln and. He even talks about mustering the troops on the green and he's constantly trying to, as I say, my title awaken the spirit of America, which had been, you know, knocked unconscious by

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 18:46

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 18:47

Um, and so that's his. His strategy, as I say his most powerful weapon in his fight against isolationists were words.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 18:54

Mm

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 18:55

and of course the three great wordsmiths that he brought in to be his team, Harry Hopkins had been with him for a long time. He had run the works project administration. He had been with him when he was the governor of New York, very, very shrewd political mind, quite brilliant. Uh, Winston Churchill called him Mr. Root of the matter because he would always go right to the issue and address it. Uh, judge Sam Roseman was a New York Supreme court justice who had been again with Roosevelt for years since he was governor. And even though he was a sitting Supreme court justice, he would go down to Washington on weekends and help write speeches and he's often credited with coining the term, the new deal. Um, but then by 1940, they had, Decided they needed a new, fresh voice, someone to help pick up their. quality of their writing and persuasiveness. And so they turned to a rather unusual source, a completely apolitical playwright and screenwriter named Robert Sherwood, who was both a Pulitzer and Oscar winning writer. And so they, Brought him in to sort of add poetry to their prose. And the three of them were incredibly effective. Now, of course, Roosevelt himself was quite a good speech writer, and he really had a sense how to communicate with the American public and, and how to be persuasive. I, I thought I talked a lot about persuasive language and you take apart his speeches and you see this visual metaphors that he uses, you know, he calls German U boats the rattlesnakes of the Atlantic, you

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 20:23

hmm. Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 20:24

lots Uh, simple ways of explaining things to the American public that helps them understand either the historical context or the moment in which we're in. So that he just keeps repeating and repeating and pushing and pushing, uh, this idea that it's our responsibility to be a citizen of the world.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 20:43

And our responsibility to be the arsenal of democracy, as he calls it in his speech in December of 1940. So, can you tell us a bit about that very important speech and why he felt comfortable, that's the word at that point, in making that speech at the end of 1940?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 21:00

Well, that speech is part of this extraordinary period of about, uh, 30 days, uh, so he wins re election in November of 1940, and at this point it's like the gloves are coming off, you know, I, I don't have to play the political game anymore. I won the election. Now we're going to do what I think we should do. And he goes on a vacation in the Caribbean, not vacation, he goes on a big naval cruise ship to visit a number of British bases that had been traded for some destroyers we gave to them. and so as he's cruising around the Caribbean, he gets this incredible letter from Churchill, 4, 000 word letter that Churchill described as the most important he ever wrote, where Churchill basically says, look, we're broke and we can't continue to pay for these weapons you're providing us, you know, you have to help us. And Roosevelt thinks and thinks and he tries to come up with something and he comes back does a press conference and he says, you know, two neighbor's house was on fire, and he comes over and asked to borrow your garden hose to put out the fire. You'd lend him the garden hose. You wouldn't charge him for it. And he would use the garden hose, put the fire out. And when he was done, he would return the garden hose. And if it's not, if it's damaged, he'd buy you a new one. And he sort of plants the seed.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 22:07

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 22:08

later, he does this amazing fireside chat on December 29th, 1940, which we now think of as the Arsenal of Democracy, speech, in which he talks about, again, this responsibility we have. He references Washington and Lincoln and great American traditions and how we have a responsibility to be the defenders of democracy. And he uses this phrase, we must become the great arsenal of democracy because it taps into America's greatest strength, which was his industrial might and the ability of us to out manufacture anyone else, but commit our most precious resource. It doesn't commit young lives, right? He's

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 22:47

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 22:47

soldiers. He's just committing our industrial capacity. and so people really like this idea. And he introduces few days later, he does another speech, which he introduces the concept of lend lease. We're going to lend these weapons to England because they're more value, they're more useful in protecting our security if they're in the hands of British soldiers over there than if they're sitting in warehouses here in America.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 23:10

Hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 23:10

And in that speech where he introduces the concept of lend lease at the end, he talks about the four freedoms. Why is this important? And what. motivates America to be the arsenal of democracy. talks about the freedom from want and the freedom from fear and the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech everywhere in the world. And this is the best explanation of his motivation and passion for this whole thing is that he really believes that everybody in the world deserves equal opportunity. They deserve to live in a country, but the government is of their own choosing. Uh, and, and this is sort of his driving force in which he, Tries to motivate America and the world in understanding this existential threat that's being posed to democracy by these fascist regimes.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 24:00

An existential threat to our survival and not just a war of governments, but a war of ideas. He's framing it and really amazingly done. As this Lynne Lease program gets underway or as it's being debated, Lindbergh is out there playing a major role. How did he try to defeat Lynne Lease before it got started?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 24:21

So right after the Arsenal Democracy speech and the For Freedom speech FDR submits to Congress H. R. 1776. Interesting date he would choose for it, which is the Lend Lease Bill. and then one week after it goes to Congress, Hamilton Fish, who was one of FDR's congressional nemeses, invites Charles Lindbergh to the testify before Congress regarding Lend Lease. And when Lindbergh arrives the way the newspapers described it, he was mobbed by the press. You know, like he was a Hollywood superstar, flashbulbs going out, huge crowd chasing him through uh, congressional offices. Uh, when he gets into the, uh, Witness chair the of the press around him is so outrageous that the judge has to call in basically security to clear them away from him so that Lindbergh could testify. So that's the context when it starts. And then he gives a, prepared introduction, then he answers questions for hours. And does a really excellent and remarkable job. Again, you remember he has this sort of casual Midwestern tone. He's still got his boyish charm and good looks. Uh, he's sort of understated. Everything he says seems very reasonable. He talks about how it's not America's role to protect other countries and that he had written a Uh, magazine article where he said, you know, Germany just wants what England and France had a hundred years ago. They went out and conquered territories all over the world and, and now it's fine. But when Germany tries to do it, it's not. And so it's a rather testimony. Matter of fact, it's so effective that the chairman of the committee says, you are the best witness we have ever heard from in my time in Congress. And when Lindbergh gets up to leave the 50 members of the committee. bipartisan, up and give him a standing ovation. If you can imagine that.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 26:15

It is hard to imagine.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 26:17

and so there was a majority of Congress who opposed Lend Lease. There was a majority of Americans who weren't very supportive of it. But, but, but, You know, within three months of debate, Lend Lease passes in March of 1941. And it is essentially what saved England from going under.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 26:36

So two questions from that, Paul. First, with that testimony of Lindbergh, how did Roosevelt respond? Did he respond directly? How did his people respond to that? And then of course the obvious question is how in three months after that, did he get Lynne Lease over the finish line?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 26:51

Never underestimate the political skills of Franklin Roosevelt.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 26:56

Right.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 26:56

Um, he was. truly brilliant politician. And yes, he made compromises. There are things he did that were terrible. You know, the incarceration of Japanese Americans, his refusal to support the federal anti lynching law. There's lots of things you can criticize about him, almost all of which were done for political expediency, to get. But in this moment, he had carefully constructed a consortium of support within Congress. Now, again, the Democratic Party had super majorities in both houses. So, but his biggest opponents were not just Republicans, but also Southern conservative Democrats. And so he was able to pressure them to, um, As a coalition to pass Lend Lease, and as he continued to talk about it, and people were out there promoting it, the public became more and more supportive of it. So during this entire period from early 1940 through till Pearl Harbor at the end of 1941, you see this gradual shifting of American public opinion from strongly isolationist to strongly interventionist. And that's mostly driven by FDR's persuasive language.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 28:07

Did he take on Lindbergh directly or did his people do a direct saying, you know, Lindbergh's wrong and we're right? How did that work?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 28:16

Well, it's interesting. His, Most effective counterattacks came from his cabinet members. Harold

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 28:23

hmm. Hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 28:26

in attacking Lindbergh. but it, it's not until fairly late in 1941 that he first really addresses Lindbergh. And that's when at a press conference, and this is during a period after they'd had some contentious back and forth where, uh, FDR's administration had accused him of not being a loyal American. Why didn't he give back this German award? And Lindbergh had resigned his, office in the, U. S. Army Air Force Reserves as a colonel. And he was criticized for that. And then one of the reporters at a press conference asks Mr. Roosevelt specifically about Lindbergh. And this is the first time you get this direct question answer event. Uh, and he says at a, at a moment where we desperately need pilots, skilled aviators and pilots, why don't you? Vi, you know, Charles Lindbergh to join the US Army Air Force and Roosevelt in the way he often did, he leaned back and sort of took a dag on a cigarette and he started talking about this copperhead during the Civil War. And the Copperheads were the northerners who supported the South. talked about how these copperheads were appeasers and they kept saying that we should just. give up. We don't want the South. Let, let the South do what they want. And then he started talking about the, the naysayers when George Washington was at Valley Forge and, oh, we're never going to win this war. We should just give up. It goes this whole sort of history lesson about the people who had tried to prevent Lincoln and Washington from doing the great things that led to our victories. And finally, when the reporter says, are we still talking about Charles Lindbergh? And the room laughs and, uh, said, yes. like, can we quote you on that? And Roosevelt says, yes. So that's the first time you really see him directly going at Lindbergh. And of course, Lindbergh was outraged that the president of the United States would accuse him of. Being an appeaser and unpatriotic. And so it escalates this war of words. But interestingly, you know, he had Lindbergh's wife indirectly during one of his speeches. She had come out with a book in the fall of 1940 called The Wave of the Future. Now, Ann, Lindbergh was a very accomplished writer. She had written several bestselling books. She was a very accomplished woman in a lot of ways. And she wrote this book, The Wave of the Future, which was a short book, which she did to try to explain her husband's point of view, because obviously she knew they were embroiled in this extremely contentious debate. But in the book, she basically says democracy is the past, fascism and totalitarianism is the wave of the future, and that the Nazis are just a scum riding on the surface, they won't last, but this idea of a totalitarian government really is the future and we should embrace it. As you

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 31:15

Hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 31:15

imagine, the book was not well received, Of his speeches, FDR says, there are those who say that fascism is the wave of the future and democracy is the past. I don't believe it. We will Press forward. We will never give up. Democracy will survive. This is not our last chapter. So it had, by that point, it had gotten pretty personal.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 31:33

Yeah. You note in the book a place that we both love very much, the FDR Presidential Library Museum was created, you say, by FDR as an act of his faith in democracy and the soul of America. How do you see that being the case?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 31:49

You know, FDR was a collector. He loved to collect stuff. He collected books. He collected ship models. He collected paintings. He collected rare manuscripts of the U. S. Navy in its earliest days. And he considered himself, you know, an amateur archivist. As a matter of fact the U. S. National Archives opened during his administration, that giant building on Pennsylvania Avenue. He was there for the christening of it. Uh, the U. S. archivist was one of his closest associates. And so he had this vision. created a committee that looked into what had happened to the presidential papers of previous presidents. And it was, it was a horror story. Some presidents burned them. Some of them sat in warehouses and rotted. Some of them were given away and sold. Some of them went to colleges or they, some papers were here, some were the library of Congress. And so he really thought it would be important having come through the great depression to have all of his papers in one place where historians could see them. And he hoped that the papers of his, of his predecessors, Other members of his administration would all be in one place at his home in Hyde Park. And that would also give him a place to show all the cool stuff that people had given him and his ship collection and his painting collection and his books. And all of this he was giving to the American public. Um, it was donating it. So this is the first presidential library. That was run by the National Archives. You know, there are other presidential libraries, quote, that are private, uh, that still have papers and they're fairly organized, but they weren't to the American people. This is the first time. The FDR presidential library was really the inception of the presidential library system we have today. Every president since then has had some form of facility. There's been a formal set of codified laws, the Presidential Records Act, which says these papers don't belong to the president. They belong to the American public. As you know, recent events have shown how controversial this is and, um, there There is an importance to protecting those documents, preserving them for the future historians. There's lots of controversy around who gets to look at them and how fast do they be processed, but the core concept is still valid today. The American public have a right to know how our government works, and the U. S. National Archives is the right organization to preserve and protect those documents.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 34:00

Yeah, certainly. I spent a good part of my career there believing very firmly in what you just said, Paul. So there are great institutions. Um, one other thing you talk about in this, again, terrific book is the Atlantic Charter. So, can you tell us a bit about what the charter was? What did it mean for the Anglo American relationship? And what were its, before the war, prior to Pearl Harbor, I should say, and then what were its longer term effects?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 34:24

Well, you know to understand the Atlantic Charter, you have to have a little bit of the context, which is that FDR and Churchill had never met face to face, or they had met briefly during World War I, but not as leaders over their country. And Churchill really wanted to meet with FDR because he was convinced that if he could just meet with him, he could convince him to declare war on Germany. And Roosevelt was a fairly wily character. So, in August of 1941, they agreed to have this secret meeting. Rendezvous. And Roosevelt loved pulling tricks on the press. So in his press conference, he says, yeah, I'm going to take a vacation. I'm going to get on the presidential yacht, the USS Potomac. We're going to go up the coast. I'm going to go visit my home in Campobello, Canada and cruise along the coast. And the boat takes off to great fanfare and he drives up the coast to Cape Cod and goes into the towns and he waves to people from the boat. And then in the middle of night, he gets on a little shuttle, and they take him over to the USS Augusta, a USS Navy heavy cruiser that takes him up to Placentia Bay in Newfoundland, where he has a secret rendezvous with Churchill. Meanwhile, the Potomac, the US Potomac is cruising along the coast. One of the crewmen is in a wheelchair with the top hat and a cigarette holder being wheeled up and down the deck with the presidential flag flying. Um. Pretending to be Roosevelt and, you know, tourists would wave at him. There were no press allowed on the boat, even Eleanor and his cabinet members did not know where he was.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 35:43

Hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 35:44

So he goes up the USS Augustus at anchor and out of the fog emerges HMS Prince of Wales, this massive. British dreadnought that had just finished sinking, helping sink the Bismarck, still had battle scars on its side. It pulls up, it drops anchor. Winston Churchill comes across, comes up the gangplank. You know, the band is playing God Save the King, and Roosevelt is standing there on the railing holding onto his son Elliot's arm as Churchill walks up and they shake hands. I mean, this is just such a moment, it's one of my favorite moments in all of the Roosevelt story, because this is the moment in which. everything on. If they

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 36:22

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 36:24

then nothing would have worked in World War II. instead they formed this remarkable bond. You know, the special relationship as, as they called it. And they disagreed on a lot of things. Now, Churchill was really hoping that FDR would, if not declare war on Germany, at least agree to send more weapons and things. But what Roosevelt really wanted was a press release. He wanted to use words as weapons against Hitler. He wanted to show why are we different? Why do we have the moral upper ground here? And so the Atlantic charter is actually eight statements, uh, and it really is, it's not a treaty or anything. It's just really like a press release where the United States and England agree that there will be no territorial gains, that all people have a right to self determination, that trade barriers should be lowered, that there should be economic cooperation, there should be a world free of fear and want, uh, there should be freedom of the seas, and most importantly, there should be disarmament. it's this sort of framework for outlining. The world as it could be, and it builds somewhat on the for freedom speech that he gave earlier that year. The most important thing was this idea about self determination churchill thought that this referred to those countries that had been dominated and conquered by Germany or Italy or Japan. Um, Roosevelt thought it applied to everybody, even the British colonies. And of course

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 37:48

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 37:49

fight about this, this. Became the foundation for what eventually was the United Nations and the idea of the elimination of the empires of Europe and the freedom of these countries for self determination. And in some cases that worked out well, in some cases it didn't, you know, we, we know the history, some things are still evolving,

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 38:10

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 38:11

was important for Roosevelt that they have this framework of why we're going to fight to the Americans and for the British and for the British Empire, why we're fighting this war against Nazi Germany.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 38:23

Mm hmm. A monumental meeting for sure, and they didn't know them, but what, just four months later, Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and we're drawn fully into the war. How did Lindbergh respond to Pearl Harbor and our entry at that point into World War II?

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 38:40

Well, I'll answer that question a second because there's a postscript to the Atlantic Conference meeting, which

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 38:45

Oh, please. Yes.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 38:46

the HMS. of Wales was there. And on the second day of the conference, they have this huge religious service on the back deck of HMS Prince of Wales. The American sailors come over. There's hundreds of them there. They sing hymns. Churchill and Roosevelt are seated. All of their military leaders are behind them. It's just very powerful. Emotional moment, you know, onward Christian soldiers and near my God to thee and all these ideas of how Americans and British share this sort of strong cultural tradition. And then just a few days after Pearl Harbor, the HMS Prince of Wales has sunk and almost all of the 800 sailors who were on that ship during the Atlantic conference die. so it was a huge blow to Churchill personally because it was one of the Navy's most important ships. But it was also this emotional blow that they had shared this experience with these people.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 39:40

Oh, horrendous. Oh,

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 39:42

So, yeah, so Pearl Harbor happens on December 7th.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 39:46

hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 39:47

Uh, and, and there was actually a Conference that the America first had scheduled a big anti Roosevelt meeting that was going to happen. after Pearl Harbor on December 8th Lindbergh comes out with a statement saying the United States has now been attacked by force of arms We must defend ourselves by force of arms. a couple of digs in in Roosevelt No matter how we may have opposed bad leadership in the past. We must all come together now and defend America and of course he tried to re enlist You uh, you know, he was very good friends with a number of very high ranking people and military people in the Roosevelt administration. George Marshall was a fan of his. Hap Arnold, who was the head of the U S army air force who had gotten all the intelligence that he had fed to the U S out before the war. Uh, but you know, the word was out. He

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 40:34

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 40:35

FDR had said to a group of senators, I'm going to clip that young man's wings. none of the military services were going to let him in. none of the military, industrial complex. Companies that he would go to because you would think they would want to hire him. They said like, no, we don't, we can't touch you. You know, we don't want our very lucrative armaments contracts being yanked out for under us if we hire you.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 40:59

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 40:59

who's the end up going to work for Henry Ford?

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 41:02

Yeah, of course. Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 41:05

this mile long manufacturing plant, Willow Run, to build these B 24 bombers. Uh, and there was a lot of problems. They, they had fallen behind schedule. They were having a lot of quality control problems. And Ford hires Lindbergh to come in and help improve manufacturing and improve the quality of the plane. And he works there for several years. And he really does bring A very, very high level of to this challenge. And he does help improve the plane. It's never going to be a great plane, but he does help improve the plane. He helps improve manufacturing. But what's interesting is that towards the end of the war, he goes to the Pacific as a private contractor, essentially to help the U S Marines. Who's Fighter planes are having trouble with the Japanese zero fighter planes. Um, and he helps redesign the planes essentially in the field, which improves their range and improves their fuel efficiency. He helps them with their weapon systems helps them tweak their engines. And so all of a sudden there's this tremendous Improvement in the quality of these planes that the Marines were flying. And then he flies 50 combat missions as essentially as a private citizen, without anybody's approval back East. Right. Because when you're in a wartime and there's a guy there on the runway and he's a great pilot and there's a plane sitting there and you got guys getting shot down, guess what?

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 42:25

Mm hmm.

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 42:25

your seat in the plane. and so in many ways he sort of redeems himself. And then when Ike Eisenhower becomes president in the 1950s, he, reinstates Lindbergh's status as an officer in what's now the U. S. Air Force and he ends up retiring as a lieutenant general.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 42:46

I see. So, again, a terrific book, Paul. I mean, I could talk all day to you about this. Really, I encourage our listeners to go out and get Awakening the Spirit of America, FDR's War of Words with Charles Lindbergh and the Battle to Save Democracy. Paul Sparrow, what's next for you? A

paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_150250: 43:03

Well, I'm working on another book, of course. Um, I, right now though, I'm sort of traveling around talking about the book, doing podcasts, trying to get people aware. I mean, you know, we live in a fraught time. We see divisions in this country many of which I think FDR's message resonates with, his idea was that ultimately, Americans have to come together and do the right thing. I think the issue around Ukraine and Russia right now is very similar to the issue with England and Germany. I think this misinformation campaign that's happening against America right now, people have to understand that we share a set of core values. Even though he took office during the worst of the depression and faced the world war two, two of the greatest crises in American history, FDR really believed in the American system. And I think we have to look at that and say, if he could believe in the American system in the darkest days of our republic, then we have a responsibility to do the same.

squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25-2024_150249: 44:01

perfect way to end our conversation, Paul. Really, thank you so very much for joining us, and I want to thank everyone out there for listening. Please visit AmericanPOTUS. org and consider supporting our work. Thank you very much, and make sure you join us again next time on American POTUS.