American POTUS - Remembering John Adams with Marianne Holdzkom

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Transcript

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 0:29

Welcome to American POTUS. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm your host, Alan Lowe. On this episode, I'm very pleased to be joined by Dr. Marianne Holtzcom. Marianne is an associate professor of history at Kennesaw State University in Georgia, where she specializes in early American history, the colonial and revolutionary eras, and she has a special interest, as we will discuss, And how history is remembered in popular culture. Now today I'm excited to talk with Marianne about her terrific book, Remembering John Adams, the second president in history, memory, and popular culture. Marianne, thanks so much for joining us on American POTUS.

1:08

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 1:10

Well, I love John Adams. Uh, you and I discussed this a bit before we started recording that It was, uh, Scott Bruhn's favorite president, our former co host on American Potus, so he'll be very excited about my talking with you today. So thanks so much. So let me start with this. Let's start with the discussion of some of the terminology you use. What's the difference between history and historical memory and what is meant by the term usable past

1:40

Well, as I see it, history is what happened. The facts that we know happened. historical memory is how we remember those facts. So, you know, for example, we do this with our families. We all came off of Thanksgiving. Um, maybe some of us were sitting around the table and somebody remembered something that happened at a previous Thanksgiving. But then someone would chime in and say, well, that's not how I remember it at all., or maybe a third person would chime in and say, I don't remember that ever happening. and so that's what historical memory is., what we remember and how we remember it. It doesn't change the fact that something happened, but it, changes how we view that particular event. And, as far as the usable past is concerned, that is a term that was coined way back in 1918 by a literary. Historian who was writing about the void that American writers had to deal with when they looked at their own past, and he recommended that it was possible to create a past, what he called a usable past, a past that writers could look to and pick and choose what They saw relevant about that past, and so one of my manuscript readers suggested that I look at this concept. And of course, the minute the concept came out 1918 into the 1920s, historians latched on to this. And said, yes, this is, this is how we remember our past. We, we take from it what we can use and we leave the rest.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 3:33

I see well fascinating concepts and certainly Uh, you can see that, develop in your study of how Adams has been portrayed. Let's jump into Mr. Adams, shall we? The, the first biographers were his son and grandson, John Quincy and Charles Francis Adams, both famous in their own right. So. How did they approach the subject of their very famous father and grandfather?

3:58

If you read those biographies they are, written in a 19th century style. And so there's, there's a lot to kind of wade through. So they will tell a story about their father slash grandfather, and then they'll go into the context of what was happening. But the other thing that really comes out, in that particular biography was, the idea that this son and later his son wanted to defend John Adams. They wanted to bring him to the forefront in a way that they didn't think he had been appreciated. Um, and so there is a certain amount of, apology going on there, but, there's also a drive to point to those really important things that he did and the noble things that he did, so that people would see a John Adams who would defend the British soldiers at the Boston Massacre, or who was instrumental in getting the Declaration of Independence approved. Those were the kinds of things that they wanted to focus on. And since they were the only ones that had access to his papers, they could pick and choose. What they decided to write about, so it's very much a defense of the man. I think in a lot of respects.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 5:24

Was it protecting that legacy? Was that what was behind The papers were not available for a long time. What was behind that?

5:31

That's correct. It's hard to say exactly what was going on there. The late curator at the Adams National Historical Park believes that the family was being very protective of that legacy. And so. When Charles Francis Adams actually produces, John Adams works, he picks and chooses again what he puts in there and other things he leaves out. So, having those papers closed away from scholars for so very long meant that. Oftentimes, John Adams story wasn't told. People said, well, if we can't have access to the papers, we can't tell his story. And so it sort of led to his neglect. Even though they were trying to protect that legacy, they also almost dismissed it by keeping those papers closed and, and away from scholars.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 6:32

Yeah, as a former archivist, still love archives, we always said they were the raw material of history, and if you don't have access to them, it's Very difficult to tell those stories, that's for sure. Now, you mentioned early on a book I admittedly have not read Peter Shaw's book, the the character of John Adams. So how did he analyze the president and did you find that interpretation? Persuasive

6:54

It's funny that you picked out that book in particular. I first read that book when I was in college, and I had just begun studying John Adams and had a soft spot for him. And my initial reaction to that book was anger. I really, I didn't like it. And when I re read it to write this book, I can't quite figure out why I reacted that way except that um, Peter Shaw was putting John Adams on the couch. He, he wanted to get inside his and figure out why he did what he did, why he reacted the way he did. So, it's what one critic called psycho history. And what I like about Peter Shaw revisiting that book is that he spent a good deal of time talking about how John Adams didn't care about being popular, but when he would say he didn't care about being popular, he was working toward being unpopular. I mean, everything that he did seemed to point him in a direction of saying, well, I'm who I am and you can accept me as I am. But it drove people to not really like him very well. Um, and the other thing that Peter Shaw did that I thought was very interesting and very persuasive since you asked that question was a comparison between John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. Because a lot of people forget that, um, They were both New Englanders. Uh, Ben Franklin was raised in Boston before he ran away to Philadelphia. But these two men came out of this Puritan tradition in New England with very different insights into it and with very different baggage from it. And so Peter Shaw points at that and says, this, this tells you a lot about who these guys were. were and how they reacted to the world. Benjamin Franklin's very laid back. John Adams tends to be confrontational unless he doesn't want to be. He will isolate. Um, and, and Peter Shaw spent a good deal of time talking about the diplomacy together. Because that was the moment where they really butted heads. So it's, it's an interesting study, but if you're having a love affair with John Adams, it may not be the place to start.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 9:34

Right. I'll be ready. I will, I will try to read it, but I will be fully prepared now. Thanks to you for that. So, so one, one book I have read, uh, and we had this fellow on American POTUS, a great historian, Joseph Ellis, spoke with us about his book, Passionate Legacy, the character and legacy of John Adams. So can you remind us how Joseph interpreted Adams and again, perhaps your thoughts on that interpretation

9:59

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I love that book. It was another one that I came across as I was reading about John Adams and what delighted me about what Joseph Ellis did was that he was looking at Adams in his older years. And what emerges from that book are two things really that I think are important. One is the early years of John Adams retirement, when he's feeling bitter, he's feeling neglected, And he gets defensive about it, to his detriment. But then somewhere around 1812 or so, he begins to become mellower, I guess? I'm not sure that's a word we can use when we talk about John Adams, but he starts to feel more comfortable with what he's done and what he's contributed, and Joseph Ellis brings that out. So what you see in his book is the doting grandfather. The forgiving friend, the man who's willing to be the hero in a friendship and step forward. I mean, he initiated the communication with Thomas Jefferson after all those years. He tried to mend his relationship with Mercy O. S. Warren, in those years. And so you see a warmth in him that doesn't normally come out. And that's what I really loved about that book. Um, the other thing I would say is that, Ellis does a wonderful job near the end of the book talking about how wonderful it would be to have two monuments, one to Jefferson, which we already have, and one to Adams. That the shadows that they cast, would, would compete with one another there on the Potomac. I love that idea, and so I'm a big fan of Joseph Ellis, and I, I just adore that book.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 11:59

As do I. Now Perhaps a year or so ago, I've, I've lost track of time and space here lately, but we've spoken American Pot with, with Arrb Bernstein, about his book, the Education of John Adams. Does that book fall within what you call. The revised John Adams revisionism.

12:15

I've been thinking about that question ever since you sent it to me, and looking at the book again, I, I think. That particular book I would place in both categories. The first one where we are reassessing and reappreciating John Adams. And the second one we were saying, well, let's not go too far with this. I think Bernstein did some interesting things looking again at John Adams diplomacy and how he was affected by his time in Europe. I found fascinating the comparison between Adams this time and Jefferson. In terms of what they brought back from Europe, so I thought that was a wonderful take on this and Bernstein also mentions to and he's right about this that when you look at biographies of John Adams, you either get his political and philosophical side or you get his personal side. it's very rarely where you see the two merge. And I think Bernstein tried to do that and he, he was successful on a lot of levels there. But the example of the sort of revised revisionism, um, would be Bernstein pointing out that John Adams was not the advocate for anti slavery that a lot of scholars have pointed him, have said that he was. And that is a fair assessment. John Adams take on slavery was ambiguous at best. And we, we need to sort of back off from this idea that he was somehow an abolitionist and that, you know, he is. a founder who didn't own slaves. And I think that it's important to point that out. He's one of two of the first six presidents who didn't own slaves. His other, of course, being, the other being John Quincy Adams. But to call him an abolitionist, to say, you know, he was anti slavery, that, that's going a bit far. And Bernstein points this out rightly so. And so that's why I would put him kind of in both of these categories. But I, I appreciate his, his take on, well, I like the title of the book, for example, um, and, the, the changing political thought of John Adams and, and the way this comes out in his writings.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 14:40

So interesting. You speak about other historians, but let's skip now to a non historian field. The poet Ezra Pound wrote about Adams. Why was he interested in John Adams, and what was he trying to say about him in his poetry

14:54

Ah, Ezra Pound, he, he's an interesting character and, I knew I had to deal with him. I had some help from an English professor, and I'm eternally grateful to him for reading over this section of the book, because I wasn't sure where I was going with this, but Ezra Pound, even in his college years, became very interested in the American Revolution. And the early national period, and he had some influential professors, who had a very, whiggish attitude toward our history. In other words, a progressive history that, that we started out good and we just got better. And Ezra Pound became fascinated with the founding era at that point, but then in the late 20s and 30s, he became interested in Mussolini and began making comparisons between Thomas Jefferson and Mussolini. Which, yeah, it, it shocks people. Um, and so Ezra Pound started thinking about these founders again, and what attracted him to John Adams is really a couple of things. He liked John Adams precision in language. Language was always important to Ezra Pound, and he liked that Adams was so precise in the words that he chose. So that was one thing that attracted him. But the other thing was that Ezra Pound believed in balance in government, and so did John Adams. And so it was almost, in that sense, a match made in heaven for Ezra Pound to write this part of his cantos dedicated to John Adams and the things that John Adams did. Did and what he wrote. Um, in that vein, Ezra Pound also connected John Adams with ideas from Confucianism. The idea of balance comes out of Confucianism. And so he's, he's tying all of these things together, but it all surrounds balance in government. So I think that's what fascinated Ezra Pound in the end.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 17:12

So we'll turn from Ezra Pound to Irving Stone. I didn't realize Stone had published a book that's called, Those Who Love, a biographical novel of Abigail and John Adams

17:21

he did a good deal of research as he tells a story about four and a half years worth of research. But what he liked to do, in his stories is tell stories of people who we, we know, but maybe we don't know as well as, as we should. But he was also interested in the female characters in some of these people's lives. And so, Those Who Love is told from Abigail's perspective. And, when we first meet John Adams, he is in her home. And it's, it's a delightful scene because he's got two books in each hand and he's smelling them. And she catches him doing this and, and thinks not, oh, I'm madly in love, she thinks, what an odd little man. Um, and, but he turns around and explains to her that, you know, you can tell the paper, you can tell where the paper came from. And so, the story goes from there, and he is very careful to, to use the sources that they provide, their letters in particular. He stops the story, in 1801, perhaps because that's when they basically stopped writing to each other, they were together for the rest of their lives. Um, but he, He tells this story with a sense that Abigail knew what she was getting into with this guy, and that she loved his intellect. He wished he was a little less harsh sometimes. But it's a wonderful portrait of their marriage. And, apparently it caught the attention of, of a Hollywood producer who thought about making a film, uh, starring Peter O'Toole and, Julianne Cruz. Of all people. The film never, never came to fruition. And, as I say in the book, I wonder if the producer ever saw a picture of John Adams because Peter was quite tall and like, um, I'm not sure it would have worked, but, it was that good that that some people in Hollywood said this should be a movie.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 19:42

Now to one of my favorites, the musical 1776 with the great William Daniels as John Adams. You talk a lot about that. I know you're a fan as well. How did that musical and the subsequent film come to be

19:54

Oh yes. The story of that musical is, is fascinating to me. It was conceived by a man named Sherman Edwards. Um, who was a songwriter, but he had, majored in history in college, I think that he taught high school history for a time, and he was always interested in the American Revolution. And he got this idea around 1967, 68, um, to write a musical. And he had, basically he knew two things about it, that it was going to be about the Declaration of Independence, and he had a title, 1776. So he writes the script himself based upon, the Continental Congress transcripts and diaries and other entries. And he can't let the idea go. And he tells the story at one point that he set out to go to his studio in New York City and ended up in Philadelphia. And he died. Doesn't remember how he got there. It was a really scary moment for him, but he's sitting in front of Independence Hall saying, How did I get here? And it was kind of a sign for him, I think, that he needed to pursue this idea. So, He had a hard time finding a producer because, um, as he stated it, patriotism tended to be box office poison. But he finally found Stuart Ostrow, who agreed to do it. And Stuart Ostrow brought in a new book writer, Peter Stone, who added humor to it, who, who took it from being a history textbook to being a musical. And that's when William Daniels was willing to, to jump on board.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 21:35

This is really a phenomenal musical and film. You say in the book, I think, very accurately that for those of us who love it and have seen it multiple times, it does affect how we see him now. That portrayal has had an effect on how he's seen by many. And do you think that's in a positive way, in a negative way, or are we missing history by doing that, or is it helping us discover Adams

21:58

Um, for me personally, it was a positive thing, because until 1776, I knew the basics about John Adams, but I feel like I really met him when I first saw the film version of 1776, because all of a sudden, I was drawn into the humanity of who he was. And you see that throughout the musical and you see the running joke, the obnoxious and disliked line. But you also see at the end of the show, when he's having one of his moments with Abigail, that that really kind of hurt him. Um, and Daniels plays this just brilliantly. I love William Daniels. That was the other thing that happened when I saw that movie, a fascination with John Adams and a fascination with William Daniels. I'm still a huge fan. I sent him a copy of the book, by the way. I never heard from him, but, you know, I'm hoping that maybe someday. But, uh, if you're listening, William Daniels. But you're right that it has affected how we remember him. In that that trope of obnoxious and disliked that's carried throughout that musical. You also see that a bit in later portrayals of him, so that it overshadows some other aspects of his personality. So it did have a gigantic effect, and as far as the film is concerned, I think it's been rediscovered over the years because TMC shows it every year on the 4th of July. It's been restored. Because parts of it were, were taken out, apparently at the request of President Richard Nixon, I understand. And it's, it's beautifully, beautifully restored. So if you ever get to see the director's cut with, with all of the restored material, I highly recommend that.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 24:02

I'll have to do that. I will say my wife had not seen this. She was a fan of Hamilton. I said, well, if you've seen Hamilton, we're going to, we're going to watch 1776 now and watch it a few times. So it's a favorite of hers as well. Now, you know, one I haven't seen is the mini series, Adam's Chronicles produced by PBS during the bicentennial. How did it portray him? And was it equivalent to what we saw in 1776 or was it some way different?

24:30

Um, it's very different, actually. The writers of the Addams Chronicles had a very, very strict script in that they were asked by the Addams family not to stray from the Addams Papers. And so nothing in that script is imagined. It's all coming from the Adams papers. John Adams himself was played by an actor named George Grizzard. Who I knew in later years, he did some episodes of Murder, She Wrote. I mean, he was a great actor. Great character actor and Broadway actor. And, the portrayal there is showing John Adams from his early years as a lawyer and his courtship with Abigail, which is something that we don't see in other portrayals, um, through his death. And the theme that comes up a lot there is John Adams having to reign in his vanity. One of the lines that comes out a lot in that show is down vanity, down vanity. So it, in a way, it's not, really an over the top portrayal of John Adams because of the script. restrictions that they had. But George Grizzard even mentioned that, that he would talk about the script with, with people. And, and one of the things that happens with a lot of the actors who play John Adams is that they develop this, this, love for him. They develop even a protectiveness of him. And that happened with George Grizzard as well. So, it's interesting and it, it takes the Adams family through all four generations of the people that we know. And interestingly enough, William Daniels plays John Quincy Adams in the Adams Chronicles. So, um, he, yeah, he gets around in the Addams family.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 26:39

Well, that's another thing I will put on my list of things to do, is watch the Adam's Chronicles. Now, I'm going to go back to historians now, because we can't, leave our discussion without talking about David McCullough's, Pulitzer Prize winning biography, John Adams, uh, as I said to you before, it's one of those books. I didn't want it to end, you know, it's just so well done. Uh, what are your thoughts on that portrayal? And, and also, uh, just to kind of segue into the next thing, HBO kind of adapted that, that book into a mini series. What were your thoughts on that mini series with Paul Giamatti playing John Adams

27:11

i love David McCullough's He writes in a style that brings you in immediately. And one of the things I did with the introduction of my book was try to mimic that a little bit. When I started the introduction, I said, how would David McCullough write this? So I was, I was trying to channel him a little bit. But I don't know whether I succeeded or not, but I was trying, um, what McCullough did, I think with John Adams is, is again, bring him to the forefront in a way that no other author has managed to do. It was a New York Times bestseller and no other biography that I know of, John Adams has ever achieved that. But as some people pointed out, John Adams loses some of his crusty edge in David McCullough's biography. I'm not sure that's completely fair, but I do see their point because McCullough was trying to tell the story of a man that he had recently come to appreciate in a new way. And, and so, I think focusing on, the warmer side of John Adams was a way that. McCulloch approached that and I appreciated that. He also told some stories that segwaying into the miniseries didn't make it into the miniseries for reasons that I don't quite understand. And one of the things that McCulloch emphasized, um, was John Adams capacity for friendship. Which is something that's often missed in these portrayals. And McCulloch tells the story of John Adams and Jonathan Sewell, one of his oldest, dearest friends, and they had to part ways because of the revolution. It was heartbreaking for both of them. McCulloch tells the story, it doesn't show up in the miniseries. Sewell is there, but if you don't know who he is, you have no idea that there's, there's this bond there. And I think they missed an opportunity with that. So I think in respects, while the script was, true to the McCullough biography, so that the miniseries wouldn't be 20 hours long, they had to make some choices. They had to conflate some things, and that's understandable. But what got left out a little bit, I think, was the nuance in John Adams. Now, having said that, I think Paul Giamatti's portrayal is brilliant. Um, to go from 1770 to 1826 the way he did. He does a wonderful job. But even in recent years when Paul Giamatti talks about that role, I'm not sure he completely understood who John Adams was. Um, because he was working from a script. And he saw John Adams as a character in a movie. That's how he approached it. As a matter of fact, even William Daniels didn't do any outside research. He didn't read anything outside, of the script until after he'd done the show, and people started sending him biographies of John Adams. So, this is something that, it's a common theme for actors. They want to go with what the script gives them. Giamatti did a good job capturing some aspects of John Adams, but I think other things were, were missing there. Again, the warmth.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 30:56

I hate to admit it's been a while since I've been to the Adams, National Historical Park in Quincy. Can, you tell our listeners perhaps if they haven't been and remind me how he's remembered there, how the Park Service interprets the story?

31:08

The Park Service has a really interesting history and the Adams sites are scattered around Quincy. Quincy itself has become a real advocate for making sure that the Adams legacy is remembered. They, they have a new Hancock Adams common. They are proposing an Adams Presidential Center, which should be built in Quincy. Um, but the Park Service itself started out with just the old house or Peacefield, which was donated to the Park Service in 1946. And then slowly but surely the Park Service got some of the other sites. They got the birthplaces in 1978, and then finally in 1980, United First Parish Church, where John Adams and Abigail are buried, became part of the Park Service, essentially in name only. But, but it, it took that kind of time to get all of these parts together. And when you go to do the full fledged tour, at Adams, you start out in the visitor center, you see a nice film, which is relatively new, uh, because Paul Giamatti and Laura Linney provide the voices of John and Abigail in it. You know that it's fairly recent. And then you visit the birthplaces where they tell the story of, John Adams childhood. And then, John and Abigail's early marriage. Then you. You head off to Peacefield where you hear the story of the rest of the family, essentially. And, uh, the interpreters at Adams are really wonderful. They're dedicated people and they love the Adams family. They are passionate about continuing to protect that legacy and, I had the privilege and the pleasure of talking to Kelly Cobble, who was their curator until she died suddenly. Um, but she was wonderful and her enthusiasm for John Adams in particular, just just flew out of her. She, she loved what she did and she loved preserving their legacy. Um, and, but she also said, you know, we're entering a new age here. So it will be interesting to see how the interpretations change as we're reassessing our founders.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 33:43

Well, I, uh, I will be up there hopefully again soon. And I'll certainly report to you. You do The same as that, uh, interpretation is, changed over the next few years. So, so Marianne, great conversation. What's next for you? What are you working on right now?

33:58

Well, I have started some research on a study of museums dedicated to the American Revolution and how they are interpreting that story. And I'm looking at three very specific areas. Boston, Philadelphia, and Yorktown, Virginia. And the reason I chose those three is because in all three of those areas you have the Park Service on the one hand, preserving sites, and And on the other hand, you have either state funded or privately funded museums that have started popping up that are also telling these stories. And I'm interested in how they're cooperating, how they're clashing at times, who's doing what, um, and why., there are a lot of moving parts, so it's, it's, it's interesting. research I've just begun. It will take me a while to actually get a book out of it, but, but that's what I've been working on. And I'm also not quite done with John Adams. There's something that's, he does that, you know, he, um, I'm really interested as, as we move into remembering the revolution at two 50, really interested in looking at how he remembered it, In his later years, Joseph Ellis talks a good deal about this, and I'm trying to decide if Joseph Ellis has done enough, or if there's an article in there where I can look at the meaning of the revolution to John Adams, and how that might differ from, the way people think about it. Who didn't live through it were interpreting it even before he died. Because they were flying letters to him asking him, you know, what happened and how do you remember this? And and so the the primary sources are definitely there and I'm interested in Looking at that as well. So a lot going on.

squadcaster-4c75_1_12-04-2024_145825: 35:55

Of course, as you proceed with that, let us know. And I, I must say your study of museums and the revolution really reminds me a lot of the presidents as well. You know, the presidential libraries where I worked for many years, part of the federal government, and then you have state involvement, you have private groups, nonprofits, and so forth, really interesting to look at those different interpretations. So looking forward to all that. And I'm glad to see John Adams has not let go of you. That's terrific. I really appreciate, what a fantastic discussion. I want to thank you and thank everyone for listening and for your support of American POTUS. You know, we are dedicated to education and a thoughtful civil discussion of our history. So I also want to say, please take a moment to check out the new podcast, American FLOTUS, all about the first ladies. That we're producing in partnership with the First Ladies Association for Research and Education. You can find episodes of American flotus@americanpotus.org, at flair net.org, or on your favorite podcast platform. So thanks everyone very much, and I'll see you next time on American potus.