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American POTUS - Hitting the Links with the Presidents featuring Alexandra Kitty

• Alan Lowe

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alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Welcome to American POTUS. I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and I so appreciate your joining us for what promises to be a very interesting and fun episode. My guest today is Alexandra Kitty, an award winning artist, educator, scholar, and author. Her books cover a wonderful diversity of topics with titles like A Different Track, Hospital Trains of the Second World War, The Dramatic Moment of Fate, The Life of Sherlock Holmes in the Theater, and the book we'll discuss today, The sport of presidents, the history of U. S. presidents and golf. Alexandra, thanks so much for joining us on American POTUS.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

It's nice to be on. Thank you, Alan.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I must start with this question. Are you a golfer?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

No, I, I'm not a very good golfer, but I used to box.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Box. Wow.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

And, but when I was a kid, the idea that how you play a game revealed how you saw the world first came to me when I played battleship with boys.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yes.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

your faces, see their tells, figure out their strategies and figured out ways to turn on the pressure to see what they would do they were losing the game. So I thought, Hmm, that's kind of cool.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

And then when I took up boxing, I realized that I had a lot in common with Sun Tzu's Art of War.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

my boxing trainer at the time was a former soldier and he saw the absolute same thing. So We used to talk about strategy when we were boxing.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

wondering about other

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

it led me to studying the link between us presidents and their golf game because it was so pronounced. unlike boxing, which has a militaristic scaffolding, golf has a definitely baked in a leadership scaffolding. So that's what turned me on to the subject.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Really?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I was a good golfer. I was, I would, I won't

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Nor can I. You're reminding me, the one sport I could play well, Alexandro, was tennis. I played that all through high school, and that also is a game of strategy, and I would go into games and kind of size up my opponent and realize his or her strengths, and you had to play that strategy all along the way to be successful. Certainly in golf, though, Um, as I told you before we start taping, it didn't matter what strategy I had in golf. I was so bad. If it could stay maybe on the fairway, the only time I ever got a birdie and I'll share this quick story was when I lived in California, I hit down the fairway and it went to the left onto the water, which was a lake to the left and it skipped on the water like a stone and ended up on the green. My only time I ever managed to get a birdie my whole golf career, but I loved being out there the experience was so much fun and certainly your book opened my eyes to not only the connection with the presidents But some really interesting connections the correlation with electoral victory, which we'll get to a bit later Let's go back to the first president to really publicly embrace the sport of golf and that was William Howard Taft a president We don't talk enough about what do you know about the state of the game when Taft really became enamored with it? Was it a big sport at the time? I see. Mm hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

But Taft treated the sport with absolute enthusiasm that you wouldn't have expected for that kind of sport. So he actually lit the match with how we would interpret golf later on. So it wasn't just something the well to do did. He did it with such love and enthusiasm that he put a different kind of. on the sport, which actually was quite shocking and revolutionary at the time, but it wasn't obvious. So he saw the world a little differently, he saw that world differently through golf. So I always found, I found that really fascinating

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

it was seen and how he interpreted it. He brought it into a new level.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah. Well, he again, as a president, I think on many levels deserves more study. And, uh, this being one of those, I'm going to skip ahead in time a bit. You know, for a while I was very fortunate to be the acting director of the FDR Library and Museum up in Hyde Park, New York, and learned a lot about him. And frankly, one thing I didn't know that much about is how much he had loved golf throughout his life. Can you tell us a bit about that and how he managed to stay engaged with the sport even after he was struck with polio and could no longer walk?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Well, he was an extremely good golfer in his prime. And it was something he did in his youth. So he had a very long history with the sport. He had a genuine love for it. but then he couldn't physically do it, of course, then he ensured that there were 500 public golf courses. that were made throughout the United States. So what he did is what brought golf to the people in a way that was never done before. he loved the golf, but he couldn't do it, but he gave the gift of accessibility to others, regardless of their socioeconomic status. So this was beyond generous. This was visionary. was forward thinking, it was the first emotional link between the president and the people With golf being the conduit to do that. this is a legacy that lasts to this day. And it's hard to find an equivalent anywhere else in history. This is It's something that is quite touching. It's quite moving, but it's also was very strategic in helping the middle class without poor mobility and with their own strategic thinking by allowing golf to be more accessible to the people.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

When you look around at our society today, so much still bears the imprint of FDR. That is for sure, golf being one of those things. You know, Alexander, just a few days ago, just posted not long ago, the episode I did with Susan Eisenhower, the granddaughter of Dwight Eisenhower. And as you note in your book, Dwight Eisenhower was the golf president. What drew him so enthusiastically to the sport?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

He started to play golf in his mid thirties. So he didn't start yet. was around 1925, 1926, when he was a student at the U S army command and general staff college in Fort Livingworth. So he started to unwind with golf. That was his way to relax. And then it became his passion. So it started from just a way to blow off steam to something that became deeply ingrained in his personality. So much so that during the second world war, while he was stationed in London, England, he played evening rounds of golf London during the war and it freaked out his own security team but he loved that so much he didn't care and it really went to his bravery and his foresight so it wasn't just this you know if it wasn't for a sports injury he incurred during his time at West

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Mm-hmm

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

probably would have been even a better golfer but he

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

He showed that

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

life goes on war no war life goes on this is what I believe in this is how I Think about things and I do it on the golf course out in the open. And that's something that I don't think a lot of people appreciate. You know, a lot of people would have said, well, that's foolhardy. And no, it

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

it was,

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

it was a very wise way of seeing things. And

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

obviously,

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

result, you know, we don't need to speak about the end result. So he knew what he was doing and golf really helped him clear and focus in a different way.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I know in talking to Susan Eisenhower trying to figure out how in the world this man dealt with the stresses he was under, particularly in the buildup and the execution of D-Day and golf playing an important role in that. It's very interesting to see that he made time to do that in a very strategic way.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

He just used golf in a totally different way as something as a haven and a refuge,

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

sit and think.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

After Ike, we have JFK come in and as you note, he was perhaps the most natural golfer ever in the Oval Office. But at first at least, he downplayed his love of that sport. Why did he do that?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

It was simply because he wanted to differentiate himself from Eisenhower. this was something he was like, well, he golfs too much, I'm not going to do it, but I mean he did. He wouldn't let cameras in while he was doing it, but he was every bit into golf. Because he was extremely good at it. He was extremely proficient. Campaign wise, he thought, well, maybe I'll just turn down the notch to, so the people know that there's a difference between me and incumbent.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Hmm. I wonder I'm trying to remember from your book, I believe Nixon played with Ike, but how was his game?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

His game was not very good,

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

uh, he stuck through it. Even after his presidency, actually, it was very interesting. Golf became more prominent for him after the presidency than it was during his time as vice president and then president. He sort of did it because of Eisenhower. And then later on he really saw that was much to it, and he appreciated it more as time went on.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Mm hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

he

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

know,

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

a particularly good golfer, but he was a good sport about it.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

well, I can certainly commiserate with him on that. I worked for a while, I was director of the George W. Bush Library Museum down in Dallas, and certainly got to know the Bush family to some degree. Can you relate some of the history of the Bush family, a long history of their family's involvement with the sport of golf?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

History goes back decades. The Walker Cup. That's part of the Bush legacy. That's the family. And you have generations of golfers. So it's not just something, uh, unlike let's say Nixon who took it up or Eisenhower who was the first in the family to take it up. This is an illustrious history. This is a dynasty. So we're talking about a family that's been doing it for generations. They're known as exceptional golfers and is something that's not just deeply entrenched with, let's say, the presidential office, this is something deeply entrenched with a presidential family.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

it's interesting to see how these two things aligned perfectly. So, it shouldn't be any surprise that two, uh, members of the family became U. S. presidents.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah. Well, George H. W. Bush, what did you find that the, how he approached the game reflected his character?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

He was a speed golfer,

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Mm hmm. Hm. Mm hmm.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

around him who was in charge and why. So he was focused and he was fast. A lot of times when people are focused, they tend to be slow and methodical. He was that, but he could do it, not with reflecting, but with reacting. So this was very much something unique to his golf game. So no other president can say this. That golf was, uh, a focus and he didn't waste. So there were a lot of younger golfers around. Uh, they couldn't keep up with him. And that was one thing that many people who golfed with him noted. I can't keep up with him. He's really fast.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I know George W. Bush loved golf too but you noted during much of his administration he didn't play. Why was that?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

well, it was a sacrifice he was willing to make, to show that he was going to devote all of his focus and attention during the country. In crisis, you know, during the War and he didn't want to distract attention away from hard news. He was afraid that if he goes out golfing that the press was going to, focus on his golfing, get on him for golfing without the appreciation that no president just golfs. He's golfing with a purpose. He's going to be with his trusted advisors, or he's going to have access to certain people or different world leaders. Out on the green, but he figured this is the best way for him to express that he's taking this seriously, given his family's history and absolute, uh, well chronicled love for the game.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

So certainly in the wake of 9 11 and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, yes, taking that, putting it in the back seat for a while, but then still retaining that love. How did his game compare to his dad's? I know, uh,

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

you know, George 41's legacy than George 43. But they were both extremely good golfers. So it's not like I'm saying that one a bad golfer. Both were extremely good, but just. Father could do it and he could do it all faster. So it was a really high bar to reach.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

once I was at the Bush house when I was director of the library and I asked, you know, that little putting green there and I. I said to Mrs. Bush, does he use that very often? She goes, are you kidding me? Every day. I said, he was enjoying the post presidency, that's for sure. Now, we mentioned this at the very beginning, just in passing, but you note some interesting correlation between presidents who golf and their success in elections. Why would there be such a correlation?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

It's an interesting thing and I was really when I was looking at it. In modern times, the only president who didn't golf, who won over a golfing president, was Jimmy Carter over Gerald Ford. And this was very interesting. So I started looking into why this was. And there were a number of factors. First, it's an image of tradition. have an imagery to guide us and golf isn't frenetic. So you can follow somebody doing it. So we can sit back and watch a president being active without the theatrics. It's very much a methodical game. It's a game of strategy and it's an image of having control. So first of all that is a powerful message. It's something. can relate to it, something seemingly mundane, but yet there's a lot that you can unpackage just by watching a president play golf. You can see who he's playing golf with, under what circumstances, and you can extrapolate information. It's subtle information, but it gives you a feel of the person running. Secondly, golf does train your brain to think in terms of strategy that aligns with that job. And few games you can say align so perfectly with a job as golf. So you're out in the open. You have to see the big picture, but you have little, you know, steps you have to go increment. To see the big picture, so golf is a way of your brain to think in terms of leadership, and it also gives the president an opportunity to network outside the Oval Office and campaign trail without the meddling of handlers. So a lot of handlers can say, no, he can't see you. When it's leisure time the president has, or the candidate has more say in who they're going to see who they're going to speak to. And it extends the office beyond the campaign trail or the Oval Office to include the golf course. I

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Such an interesting observation, Alexander, really, that, I was taken by all your book, but that really struck me, that correlation. And good explanation of why that could be, is absolutely the case. Now, let's take a step back and look at the sport itself. The presidents who played it, and have played it a lot, some played it quite well. How have they affected the image and the development of the game? Yeah.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

really interesting when I was doing research for the book, that each president brought something different to the table. So it's not like a check mark, okay, I can check this off, play golf, check. There's more to it. What is your contribution to this storied legacy? So each president who took off golf added something to the mythos. So Taft wasn't signaling that he arrived when he played golf. He had a genuine love for the game. broke through with a novel interpretation of how we see this, what was once saw as a stodgy sport. Now, LBJ on the other hand, he was absolutely horrible at the game. But it didn't stop him from doing it out in public. I mean, that takes guts. And he conducted business out on the green. He got legislation through out on the green. So there was no off button for him. So he's working around the clock. That's actually quite a big message with a game that was very different than, let's say, Taft. Um, Barack Obama, on the other hand, he played basketball and his wife, Michelle, said you should take up golf. So he listened to her. So he was open to change and suggestion. And he got better at the game as time went on. He was up to taking new challenges, but he still took up the mantle of president on a deeper level. So each president who played golf. Added something different. Now, Bill Clinton, developed a strong friendship with Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien out on the green. So much so that when both men left office, they still played golf together. So this was his way of making alliances. And it's really interesting to see how he connected with world leaders through the golf game. So it wasn't, okay, going to a meeting here or there. Let's go out, relax on the green, let's hammer a deal out. Each one brought something a little different to the table that the ones that would come after could, you know, had something to fall back on, but then they could add something else to the mix. So it's a fluid sport. terms of strategy, golf is a very fluid, evolving sport.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

So interesting, really fascinating. I wondered, look in your crystal ball for a moment. Will golf, you think, always retain that allure for presidents? Is there any other sport that can compete with it in that regard?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

It depends. really tells you everything you need to know about a president. Strengths, weaknesses, plans, and vision. And it's a gold standard for a reason. Go But you can also say, what more can the next president do and say with the sport? I think it's here to stay, but somebody might, let's say another sport, like such as tennis could easily break this stream, but it would have to take someone who understands that a leader needs to be active. They need to move. So it's not just sitting at an office. Or walking to this or that meeting. And they could technically use a different sport to communicate effectively with the American people. And actually have a genuine love for the game. started it all because he had organic love for golf. So if a candidate was savvy enough, they could actually break the rules and start a new tradition. But that would also, I think, alter the trajectory of the office. And why remove something that has worked for generations of presidents. So I think it's here to stay. It's very strategic. It's very aligned with the office. Might shift, somebody might think of something else or do something else, but. would, it's very hard pressed to see it at this point.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I fully agree with you. It's hard to think of any other sport that would fill that same role. You spoke of generations of presidents. Playing golf, if you had some magic and we said all the presidents were back with us and they're all out on the links right now Playing a president's only golf tournament, man. That would be great We could we could raise a lot of money for a lot of good charities doing that. Uh, uh If we were able to do that, who do you think would win?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I think, uh, George 41, uh,

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Huh

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Walker Bush. But I think JFK would have given him a real run for his money. Bush was, uh, I always always say the Ramones of golf. You know, they had concerts in under 30 minutes. He had his golf game in the speed of light. So this was so ingrained in him too. JFK was also so natural in his golf game. I think it would be a toss up, but I would put my money on, uh, Bush.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Yeah, I wouldn't vote against bush. That's for sure. Yeah, so alexandra really fascinating book great conversation What are you working on right now? What's next for you?

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I've been working on developing different types of true crime shows with different types of storytelling. I fell into it being a TV researcher for a TV show, um, true crime show called A Time to Kill. And that's something I fell into. And I found that I had a propensity for that because I love research. I love looking at little hidden nuggets and things that are overlooked. So I, that's where I'm going right now. But. To me, always will be interested in how the world around me different people, how they react to things, how they think. So I'm always, you know, game for a new challenge, but this book was definitely something that caught my attention and it just developed a life of its own.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Well, I'm glad it did. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot from it. And thank you so much for joining us on American POTUS. I enjoyed it.

alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_145704:

Thank you so much.

alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704:

I got to admit, I'm kind of ready to hit the links now, Alexander, but I don't think the links are ready for me. So, I want to thank everyone for listening and for your support of American POTUS. I want you also, please, to check out American FLOTUS. The podcast developed by a partnership of American POTUS and the First Ladies Association for Research and Education, or FLARE. You can find American FLOTUS episodes at AmericanPOTUS. org, FLARE net. org, or on your favorite podcast platform. So thanks so much for joining us and I'll see you next time on American POTUS.