American POTUS: Woodrow Wilson as Commander-in-Chief featuring Mark Benbow

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Transcript

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 0:32

Welcome to American potus. I'm very pleased to welcome as our guest today, Dr. Mark Vo his PhD from Ohio University. Mark served at the Central Intelligence Agency for 15 years before becoming in 2003, the Torian at the Woodrow Wilson House Museum in Washington, DC. 2007, he joined the faculty at Marymount University. an associate professor of American history until his retirement in 2023, from 2011 until 2024. Mark also has served as the director of the Arlington Historical Museum. been widely published on a variety of topics and is the author of the book's leading them to the Promised Land, Woodrow Wilson, covenant Theology and the Mexican Revolution. 1913 to 1915, the Nation's Capital Brewmaster. Christian EK and his brewery, 1842 to 1956 the book we'll discuss today. Woodrow Wilson's Wars, the Making of America's First Modern Commander in Chief. Mark. Thanks for joining us on American potus.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 1:34

Thank you and if I may, I wanna give a shout out to George Washington University where I'm now a. Part-timer.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 1:41

Oh, very good.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 1:42

So I got bored after a semester, missed students in the classroom. And so now I'm back there doing, adjunct work again.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 1:50

I didn't realize. That's wonderful. I love gw. I have some great friends when I was working in Washington who were, Washington University alums and loved it. So, congrats on that. I know it's hard to stay outta the classroom when you love teaching. So Mark, let's talk about the years before Woodrow Wilson enters public service. We know he was an academic, he was a, an intellectual, a scholar. He wrote extensively about the workings of government. What did he say in those writings about the role of president as commander in Chief,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 2:16

Yeah, thank you. It's a good question. He

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 2:18

I.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 2:19

surprisingly didn't discuss it much. He was much more focused on domestic policy. He mentions basically in passing of being commander in chief, He did talk about specific wars, of course, in some of his histories. And Lincoln, in particular. But his histories tended to be your standard 19th century, great American, great leader histories, you know, general Winfield Scott did this and General Grant did that, and General Lee did something else and, he clearly admired Lincoln. Uh, that's one of his favorite presidents. But he didn't talk really about the constitutional duties of commander in chief nearly as much. Partly because Wilson was so enamored with the British Parliamentary system. He really thought we should adopt the British system, not just because he was very much an Anglo file. But also because he thought it was more responsive to voters. the major parties presented platforms. The ones that were able to form majority government then were to carry out the platforms. And if they didn't, the government failed. They had new election,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 3:41

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 3:42

he thought that was much more responsive, than the post civil war, congressionally dominated government we had in Washington. And so the commander in chief duties just were not on his scope,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 4:00

You really opened my eyes to the fact that. When he becomes president though, that really comes to the forefront. The quote he had beforehand is it would be an irony if his presidency dealt with a lot of foreign policy issues, right.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 4:12

correct?

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 4:12

focus on domestic. Right.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 4:14

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 4:14

Uh, he cer he certainly did. I mean, beyond the First World War, which is obviously a major event in our history, there are all these other, interventions. Before World War I, he sent us into several of those smaller scale interventions. Let's look first at Haiti. Why was that nation of concern to President Wilson and why did he deem it necessary to use our military there to establish an American protectorate?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 4:36

Yeah, I just talked about Haiti in class Tuesday. Haiti in 1915 is a failed state. They had gotten into a pattern where they changed presidents basically yearly. Um, a Haitian general would declare himself in rebellion form an army, and there were plenty of mercenaries you could hire for this. And march South to Port-au-Prince, the existing president would flee,, to the French ambassador's home or to a French ship offshore in Port-au-Prince, the new president would declare a government and then another rebel general would rise up and you go through the low process again. But 1915 the Haitian president was a general. Named Sam, that's his last name of his first name, and I apologize to the French speakers for not doing it correctly. But he had the sons of his political rivals from basically the influential ruling classes in Port-au-Prince jailed. And when it looked like the rebellion was about to succeed, he had his police chief slaughter them all with machetes and pistols. And when. The great and good and powerful in Port-au-Prince saw what happened to their sons. They formed an angry mob and drug the president out of the French Ambassador's, home, which was, foreign territory and usually safe. Literally tore him to pieces. And when an American warship sailed into the harbor to give. Safe space for Americans and any other foreigners in the city. What do they see? But a Ma of Haitians marching around with body parts on spikes, holding them up, and of course, he freaks out,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 6:27

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 6:27

in the Marines into blue jackets to restore order. And Wilson is presented with a bit of, uh, fee to company. It's okay. My forces have ceased Porter Prince. There was also a, unreasonable fear of Germany. This is during World War I. Nancy Mitchell wrote a really good book some years back. Going through and seeing there was fear in the State Department that Germany would use chaos as an excuse to grab. Haiti and the harbors. And of course this is on the approach to the Canal, which is just open. So there's a certain amount of we can't let Germany have this. France was there but didn't mind if the US sees control, certainly better than anybody else and probably understood, hey, it's a Caribbean, we have an interest there. And they had no expectations that this would be permanent. You know, oh well we set up a government one we liked and we made them change their laws. So foreigners, including Americans, could invest there. That was very much against Haitian law before then. And they just didn't expect if you had said, oh yeah, we're gonna be here for another 20 years, they would said. Why, what do you mean another 20 years? They thought, oh, they'd set up a government, it would be stable. The Germans wouldn't be able to move in. The Panama Canal purchase will be safe, and we'll be able to go home and it just didn't turn out that way. There ends up being a 1920s, of course, a very bloody gorilla war.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 8:15

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 8:15

So there's no planning to it whatsoever. Not that we've ever seen a president go into war without planning. Uh, but yeah, certainly they did not plan for large scale Gorilla War for years. It was, oh my God, it's complete bloody chaos. We have to protect. You know the Americans and Europeans that are in Port-au prints and set up a government that we like and then we can leave. It just didn't work out that way.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 8:46

Yeah. And, and next door in the Dominican Republic, you show the diplomatic efforts there, the Wilson administration, the failed efforts. And then in 1916, he sends the military in there. Why has that entire episode been seen as one of his worst missteps?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 9:02

Yeah. the dominican Republic had its problems. It certainly wasn't anywhere in the same scale as Haiti. So the US had already been established to collect the customs to pay off Dominican debts. That was already, the semi colonialist, or maybe I should say stealth colonialist Role for the US there. It wasn't nearly as bloody as Haiti, but also wasn't nearly as necessary. Unfortunately, it was not nearly as long. But it was a reaction in this case, partly driven by the military to. Establish some sort of order in what was seen as a disorderly. And of course they would've said non-white country off of our shores.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 9:54

So both those countries of interest, of concern to the US under Wilson for their own reasons, but big challenge in these pre-World War I years pre for

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 10:04

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 10:04

the war was raging in Europe, but, mexico was especially a challenge for President Wilson. What were his views on the Mexican revolution that had begun in 1910?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 10:14

The coup that Sted madero and put, Gerald in power just two weeks before Wilson takes office. TAF didn't recognize the new government simply as basically a, negotiating tactic. There were some border disputes over in Island in particular, over with the, rio Grande. Yeah. Because it tends to wander a bit. So we wanted to redo the border officially. But Wilson trusted the New York world, which was sort of the unofficial mouthpiece of the Wilson Administration. And I have to say, when I did my dissertation research, which like for so many, turned into my first book, that I went through and knowing in hindsight'cause of records, what happened. The world's reporting was really accurate. Certainly far better than anything Hearst put out,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 11:09

Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 11:10

Uh, when Hearst paper just made stuff up. But Pulitzer's World was accurate and it was the newspaper Wilson trusted and they were reporting that this coup was a result of plotting by the American Ambassador and Wilson Scent. A reporter, he trusted a writer, I should say, not a reporter, to investigate. And he came back and Yeah. You know, the American Ambassador, Henry Lane Wilson, no relation. A Taft appointee had arrange for this coup to eliminate a freely elected reform president. Wilson is infuriated and we begin turning a blind eye. To the arm smuggling of weapons to, the revolutionaries. The customs department started accepting that when a arms dealer was saying, oh yes, all these boxes of, things going to Mexico. Yeah. These are all civilian items. Yeah. Uhhuh.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 12:14

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 12:15

Uh, and according to US law, armed shipments to the Mexican government had to be approved by the president. Wilson begins slow walking. And like, oh, you know, maybe I'll sign'em tomorrow. I'm kind of busy today, kind of thing.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 12:30

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 12:31

So he really supported the revolutionaries. Of course the constitutionalists do oust, erta, and then they fall out amongst themselves with the civil war, the war of the winners. Wilson really wanted to promote, responsive. Reform elected government in Mexico, but really struggled to figure out how and who. And of course the Mexican leaders didn't fall into neat American political categories. That would've made it easy. I,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 13:02

I know as part of that, trying to figure it out,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 13:05

yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 13:05

1914, he sends troops to occupy the Mexican city of Veracruz.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 13:10

Right.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 13:10

Why did that happen and what lessons, if any, did he learn from that intervention?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 13:15

That's a case of he was assured, by an American representative, that he had sent to Mexico that, Americans would be welcomed as liberators and allies, because they, uh, German ship full of arms. And turns out later, they were American arms being sent illegally to Mexico by an arms dealer. But it was thought they were German arms and they are on the German ship, intended for the dictator, general Huta. And so the idea was, well, we can't legally blockade Veracruz'cause we're not at war. We haven't declared a war, so we can't declare a blockade. And Wilson decides, yeah, but we can grab the arms when they're unloaded on the docks.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 14:05

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 14:05

So we landed the Marines in blue jackets on the docks to seize the arms, which we don't. They're still out on the ship. And found to our immense shock that we were not being greeted as liberators and allies, but as a foreign army of Yankees all landing in a Mexican city. And we end up with a two day firefight with hundreds of Mexican dead, to control the city. The American military, wanted to keep marching to Mexico City, like there, you know, Winfield Scott all over again and Roon, yanks back on the ranks, says, no, you are not to leave the city limits. You can set up defense positions on the outside of the city. That's as far as you're going, and then tries to figure out who to negotiate with to get our troops out.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 14:56

Remind me how long we'll be there.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 14:58

Um, some months we were there until into the fall, And We looked rather favorably on Poncho via, because he was making all the right noises about a elections and protecting American property and so on. And he was a capable general and it looked like he was gonna win. We really wanted him to move in and grab Veracruz and get the arms,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 15:24

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 15:25

The arms from the ship that were coming in. Were not there, but there were still plenty of other arm shipments in the warehouses on the docks. Uh.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 15:34

of course is ironic because my next question, skipping ahead, the 1916 where we're sending a military expedition into Mexico, can you tell us about why that happened and the outcomes of that intervention?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 15:45

Yeah,'cause Wilson is trying to decide which faction to recognize and Quran's faction of Constitutionalists, they basically win the war of the winners, the Civil War. They have more capable generals that have actually learned some lessons from what was going on in Europe. And so, Carranza looks like he's going to form a stable government. He's making all the right noises about elections, and frankly, Carranza plays Wilson.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 16:17

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 16:18

There's. Revolutionary groups that are leading attacks across the American border, sometimes going miles and miles inside the US to attack things like ranches and train lines. We know later that they were being encouraged and often led and armed Byron's military,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 16:39

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 16:40

it looks like bandits and loose revolutionaries. So. Uh, Carranza is basically telling the Wilson administration, Hey, you know, if we can formalize relations, we can stop all this disorder. Wilson agrees. We recognize provisionally Carranza as the president, the new leader of Mexico to form a new government and via is livid. Germany was very active in trying to get the US embroiled in a war. And there is some evidence that via had some Germans whispering in his ear about, Hey, if you attack the US, Wilson will send a military after you, Mexico will rise up in outrage at the American, the Yankee invasion, and you can become the new Mexican leader. And it almost worked.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 17:35

So the expedition, seeking him in Mexico went pretty far into the territory there. How long were our forces there and did they ever

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 17:43

Uh,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 17:43

Pancho Villa?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 17:44

They came very, very close. They did wound deem and apparently came very close. He was hiding when some description say in a cave, and a US patrol went by, it actually increased. Via his numbers because yeah, he was getting support as well. Hey, he's the one fighting, the us but they were there until early 1917 and we almost got into a war with Mexico. Pershing went, was given kind of loose reigns by Wilson. Probably too loose. And he got further into Mexico than Wilson was comfortable with. And when it became clear that Germany was increasingly willing to piss off the US and risk war with us, we did not wanna have what? Small American military and National Guard we had embroiled in Mexico at the time. So Pershing is told to get out.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 18:48

I was thinking as I was reading this and I didn't realize the extent of the cross border incursions

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 18:53

Mm-hmm.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 18:54

The Mexicans had made into the us. Some other president's lease, and I won't name names, would've. Immediately attacked pretty full scale, against Mexico. If, if a foreign country in some way was allowing that, did Wilson hold back just because of philosophy or fear of the war in Europe, or a combination of all those,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:11

What we weren't really sure it was, we didn't really know it was the Mexican provisional government that was doing this.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 19:17

right?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:18

and there were hints to it, certainly, but for the most part, you had some plausible deniability on Mexico's part.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 19:25

I see. I

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:26

You know,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 19:26

Right,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:27

a, an officer in the, Carranza military, but he's not wearing his uniform.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 19:32

right,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:33

know, he's dressed like a rebel when he comes in, so, um.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 19:37

They could say, well, it's the rebels doing this. And we're trying to control and we cannot do it. I see.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 19:41

Yeah, And Wilson kept insisting because the US and Kran satisfaction had talked about the right to chase forces across the other's border.'cause Mexican revolutionaries against Carranza were sometimes attacking across the border from the us.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 20:02

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 20:02

But Carranza insisted that we were talking about the possibility, but we hadn't agreed to anything yet. And Wilson keeps saying, well, this is what we're talking about. This should count. So it came scarily close to, actual war.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 20:20

Mm-hmm. that's the time. I'm trying to remember the timing of the Zimmerman Telegram.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 20:26

Yeah, that was early 1917.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 20:28

Yeah. Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 20:29

Why Germany thought Carranza would bite and agreed to it, but Carranza was too smart and said, no, this is a trap. I'm not walking into it.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 20:39

Right, right. Very smart. So, as you noted, Pershing, his forces came close, uh, to capturing via in Mexico. They did not. He comes back and when we do enter World War I, president Wilson makes him Commander of American Forces. So I assume then that incursion into Mexico was seen from Wilson's perspective as a success in some way.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 21:02

Yeah, and Wilson picked Persing apart because Persing had done. He thought a capable job in terms of, you know, getting the troops in, keeping them organized.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 21:15

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 21:16

It could have been incredibly chaotic and was not, not like some of World War I was, but also a lot of the American generals for nearing retirement and if he was going on just seniority, probably should have picked Leonard Wood. But Wood was best friends with Teddy Roosevelt and Wood was quite openly a partisan Republican with presidential ambitions of his own.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 21:45

mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 21:45

Wilson was gonna be damned if he was gonna give Leonard Wood a platform.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 21:50

Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 21:50

the worst thing he knew was a Republican and related to a Republican senator, but he knew that Pershing was reasonably apolitical, and clearly capable. And so he picked him.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 22:02

What you reminded me of in this also is that when we send forces to Europe, we maintain their independence as the American Expeditionary forces.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 22:11

Right.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 22:11

uh, why did that happen and how did Wilson and Pershing deal with the inevitable conflicts that that created with the allies?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 22:19

Yeah. That was a huge point of tension between, for and Pershing.'Cause the allies are absolutely desperate for troops with the spring offensive in 1918 by the Germans and. Pershing does not want to give up American forces and f accuses him of, you're willing to risk our defeat to keep your troops independence. And Pershing is like, yeah. Yeah. That's a good summary of it, sir. You, and remember the US was an associated power, not an allied, it was an attempt by Wilson to maintain some independence, uh, for the. Influence in the peace conference,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 23:04

I see.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 23:04

the idea that we could be a, well, not neutral since we've gotten into the war, but as a third party might be able to negotiate between the allies and Germany.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 23:17

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 23:18

Didn't work out that way, but that was the idea behind it. And frankly, there was a lot of suspicion that the French and the Brits are just going to waste American lives. We looked at the horrific meat grinder battles in 1916 and there's no way we're just turning our good American farm boys from Kansas and Nebraska over to be sacrificed at another verdon or another battle like the song.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 23:47

right. So again, I learned a lot from your book. And among those things was that even during our involvement in the war, president's committing troops elsewhere, including, Cuba and several central American countries, what was behind those actions? Were they related in some way to the war in Europe, or were they separate?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 24:05

A little bit and they weren't a lot. Cuba had clashes between the different political parties over elections and who was cheating in election and who was not. And we were very dependent upon Cuban sugar for much of our food industry. And I remember we're trying to feed not only our own, now rapidly growing military, but trying to feed the allies as well, and.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 24:31

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 24:31

We were afraid that chaos in Cuba would affect the sugar crop, and that was a vital crop for the war effort.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 24:39

I

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 24:39

Um, so it was, okay, we'll go in restore order. We'll, help you guys decide, or we'll pick,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 24:46

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 24:46

uh, new Cuban leader for you and then we'll leave. But we had to do that more than once. But it was, a war effort and okay, we gotta protect this vital crop.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 24:56

I see. Mark, let me ask you, when we sent troops to Russia, was it post-war or was it even during the war? We sent troops to Russia?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 25:03

Yes, sure.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 25:04

Yes. So, okay.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 25:05

It was both.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 25:06

It was both. Okay, very good.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 25:08

First it was to, Northwestern Russia. The war was still going on. Partly this was'cause Wilson was constantly telling the allies No. When they asked things about US troops, was, yes. Well, okay, we'll send a few. And so of course we send. What had been National Guard units from Wisconsin and Minnesota, we figured they could handle the cold as well as anybody in the US Army. One big reason was the allies, the Brits, and the French were convinced that with Russia outta the war, Germany was going to grab all vast amounts of supplies and stores that had been sent to Russia that hadn't been distributed yet. From their Northwestern ports. And so we have to keep'em out of German hands. Well, turns out most of'em were gone. Most of the things had already been shipped off. And then of course, the Brits and the French, particularly the Brits, are trying to get rid of the Bolsheviks and encourage non Bolshevik forces. That's not a big motivation for Wilson, surprisingly, he. Told his aids that, the, Russian Revolution was as profound as the French Revolution, and it was up to the Russians to work it out. But it's like I can't keep telling the Brits and the French No. Especially if I'm trying to negotiate a piece with'em. And yeah, the Germans probably shouldn't be able to get all these weapons and raw materials and everything else that we're supposedly up in these ports. And I don't think he anticipated. Uh, just what a hellish winter of fighting the Bolsheviks that the troops would have to go through.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 27:01

Mm-hmm. So right into the middle of that civil war, at that point in the then Soviet Union, what was becoming the Soviet Union?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 27:08

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 27:09

uh, how long were our troops there?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 27:11

Oh, we got the troops out in from ska 1919.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 27:15

Also, not very long, but we, the other powers are there longer, right?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 27:18

They started getting out too. I do believe they were there a bit longer.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 27:21

Yeah. Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 27:22

it was the, we were the longest in VLA Vostok, which was largely to keep an eye on the Japanese.'cause there was real worry that Japan was going to grab a whole chunk of far Eastern Russia, since Russia was in chaos.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 27:39

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 27:39

Uh, and Wilson was really convinced that the US had to save the Czechoslovak Legion. That was. Uh, fighting its way across Russia.'cause they wanted to go and join the fight on the western front. And Wilson, of course, was a big backer of independence for the Czechoslovak and the polls. And he's convinced by Accounts from some of the. Check and Slovak leaders that they need to save them. And do we really trust Japan? Uh, because Japan was sending a hell of a lot more troops than they had originally told Wilson they were going to, uh, much bigger army. And then of course they get involved in the chaos of the Russian Civil War as well.'cause the czechoslovak get pulled into it. And you had white Russian government under Admiral ACH in the region that formed, and there was support for him and the American military. Uh,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 28:43

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 28:43

it just ends up, uh, a chaotic mess and vostok that just served no purpose whatsoever.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 28:50

Yeah. And you see that growing concern with Japan, I guess particularly since the Russo, Japanese war, you talk about our post World War i, uh, involvement in China under President Wilson. Tell us what that involvement included, and was that specifically because of that concern over Japan?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 29:07

A little bit. Um,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 29:08

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 29:09

in mind, before the war, many of the imperial powers, including US and Japan. I had a presence in China because it's entering its warlord period when there is no real one central government. And so, the Brits, the French, the Germans, the us, the Japanese all have patrol boats going up and down the Yangzi River. Providing a safe space when anti foreign sentiment leads to attacks on. Whichever European or Japanese happened to be available. And then as the war starts, of course the other powers start pulling out. They got better things to do with their navy. Uh, they on sail up and down the yang Z and it falls more and more in the us. But we start worrying, especially the Chinese were letting us know, they were really nervous about Japan. Being the only foreign power with a naval presence on this major artery. And so we did keep some ships. And keep in mind these are older river warships. These are not going to be of any use trying to go down German submarines. These are smaller, older, often obsolete. They're there to make sure some warlord, bandit doesn't attack missionaries. And for anything more than that, they're really not of any use. And they're partly there to reassure the Chinese about Japan, partly there to keep an eye on Japan, partly there to protect American and other Westerners expats lives. It's not a very big military effort in terms of the total effort for the war, And it doesn't really do much in terms of affecting our resources for the war. It's very much a small, small sideshow.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 31:05

So these smaller actions at the end of the war, and, and particularly, just after the end of the war, you talk about them in places from Italy to China.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 31:13

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 31:13

Uh, how did the American public react to that? Were they tired of fighting at that point, or did they support these efforts by the president?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 31:20

Oh, it depends. A lot of it was tied into the League of Nations fight

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 31:25

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 31:25

When some Italian or dentists go in and try to seize, say, a small port town that keeping all the hands of the Yugos logs, we send a handful of troops in. Okay., From the USS Olympia, by the way, which of course was famous for the Battle of Manila Bay, so we're not talking one of our major first warships here. Opponents to the League treaty and the Senate just jump all over it. You know, look at this. We're being dragged into a battle between. Italy and Yugoslavia over this tiny little town. Who the hell cares about it? Why are we risking American lives? No combat here. They go in and the Italians leave and some Yugoslav move in. It was almost more riot control for a small riot than a military action. But the opponents to the league jumped all over this. Sending in troops in places like Nicaragua and Panama, we accepted that that was our sphere of influence, and so what few Americans paid any attention to it just rolled off their backs.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 32:33

Interesting. Well, you again bring to light these many small scale interventions, of course, the large scale involvement in World War I. Looking at all that, how would you define Wilson's strengths and weaknesses as Commander in Chief,

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 32:48

Uh,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 32:48

I.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 32:49

two things about Wilson to keep in mind. One is he has a unique experience among American presidents. He saw war as a child and on the losing side.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 33:02

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 33:02

Uh, his father's church in Augusta, Georgia was a Confederate Field hospital and Wilson was about eight years old. And you can imagine what a Confederate field hospital late in the war, what horrors that must have looked like. And they also used the church yard as a holding pin for some union prisoners, which Wilson and his siblings and some of the other neighborhood kids all went to see, the Yankees. Wilson joked later we were shocked they didn't have horns in a tail like the adults thought they did. But, I still think that that must have had a profound influence on Wilson later, that he had seen some of these horrors of a field hospital. And I should be fair, John Milton Cooper, who is the main. Wilson Scholar disagrees with me on this. We've talked about it a few times. He doesn't think it had near as much influence in Wilson as I do. The other thing is that Wilson has something you often see with academics and that is a real respect for expertise. And he really trusted his military to know what they were doing. He knew he didn't know military science at all.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 34:24

Hm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 34:24

And they did, but he kept a very tight leash on what he saw as the president's prerogative, which was anything that touched on diplomacy. So if Pershing says We need X amount of material, Wilson, okay, we'll get it for you general.'cause that's your expertise. It came to. Issuing a diplomatic statement about something with a peace treaty Wilson had come down on him that's my sphere, not yours. He's very, very careful about the sphere between what your expertise and knowledge are and what mine is. He didn't totally understand either. It's one thing to respect expertise, it's another to understand that. And he and William Jennings, Bryan, his first Secretary of State, were absolutely horrified to find the military. Were making war plans and playing war games. Oh my gosh, no, you can't do that. That's too militaristic. He didn't understand why that was necessary'cause he didn't understand the subject. I think if he had understood a little more, he would've been much more supportive of that. And there are complaints and critiques I should say of Wilson that I think have some validity in that he wasn't that consistent in how much rain he gave Perche, that he maybe gave him too much in Mexico. I would agree with that. And. Maybe a little bit too much in some things in Europe, but he was much better in World War I about trusting Pershing's judgment. I think Persing probably learned some lessons in Mexico as well.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 36:15

Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 36:16

So he was a capable commander in chief. When the military was gonna go too far, he generally yanked back on'em. Like when they said 1914, we need to march to Mexico City. It's like, are you insane? No. But he sometimes gave orders that the military didn't make much sense when he ordered them to seize Vera Cruz. They didn't really have the resources to do it properly,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 36:43

Hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 36:43

but he didn't ask that question. He did ask questions when it came to blockading and trying to keep arms out of Mexico. He asked the military, he asked the Navy what can and can't we legally do? So he did ask that, but he didn't ask when he told them to seize our crews, what resources do you need to do it? He just said, oh my gosh, this ship is landing in a few hours. Grab the cargo. Uh, and he should have asked about the logistics of it.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 37:13

Right. And the intelligence behind it. The, I know throughout the book there was, often a lack of good information that they were proceeding upon. So that intelligence gathering, the lack of emphasis put on that, how did that change, or did that change throughout his administration of trying to gather better information about the situations they might be going into?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 37:31

Uh, it got better. Of course. He formed the inquiry with academic experts. So he'd have knowledgeable people briefing him and preparing material for Versailles. So that helped quite a bit. It also helped that he got Secretary Baker in, uh, secretary of War, because Baker was really good about asking the military, going in, and talking to the generals and saying, Hey, you know. What do you need this for? What's this about? And asking their advice and for tutoring and respected their judgment. And in return, they respected ac

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 38:15

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 38:15

and so that helped a lot. But yeah, the intelligence gathering was all over the place. Wilson didn't have a lot of trust for the Republican appointees and State Department, and there weren't a lot of experts there anyway. He tended to try to find people that he trusted to give him their opinions. So sometimes it was good, sometimes it was bad. His advisor, John Lin, that said, oh yeah, the Mexicans will greet us as liberators,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 38:52

Right, right.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 38:53

Uh, no.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 38:55

Right. I know at State Department also, he went from Brian to Lansing. Is that right?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 38:59

Yeah. And then to Kolby.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:01

Colby

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 39:02

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:02

different people, most definitely,, in their approach.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 39:05

Yeah. Brian and Lansing were both terrible secretaries of state, Brian. It was over his head. Intellectually, he was so out the step and Lansing was just kind of a jerk and not very loyal and really resented that Wilson. He kept the decision making in his own hands. Lansing thought he was the qualified legal expert on international law. He should be making the decisions, and basically tried to stab Wilson in the back over the league treaty. He was not a good secretary of state, and Colby was a good guy, and smart, but

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:39

hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 39:40

the time he's Secretary of State. Wilson has had his stroke

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:44

Yeah.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 39:44

there wasn't much for him to do. So he's a non-entity. In terms of an appointment,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:49

Mm-hmm.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 39:49

had some good appointees and some really bad appointees, but his two main secretaries of state, in my opinion, both were pretty dreadful.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 39:57

Yeah. really a fascinating book. Wilson always fascinates me this book, really opened my eyes to so many things about his presidency, about his role as commander in Chief and certainly about America at that time. What's next for you? What are you working on?

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 40:11

Uh, something completely different.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 40:14

Okay.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 40:15

I'm working on a Master's certificate in Focal at George Mason, so I'm simultaneously faculty and a graduate student, which can get confusing. But I have an idea that because Wilson was a huge movie fan and vaudeville fan, I had an idea about writing a book about Wilson and popular entertainment. And that I thought, well, that's not really a whole book, that's maybe an article. So I've been thinking about writing a book about. Folklore, particularly ghost stories and things related to seances and their influence on early 20th century American popular culture. I really needed a background in folklore if I was gonna touch on folklore. And since I'm over 62 and. Live in Virginia. That makes going to graduate school in Virginia Public University affordable for me,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 41:12

Very good.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 41:12

so,

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 41:13

exciting. I can't wait to read that. I grew up on a farm in Kentucky and I'll send you some ghost stories.

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 41:18

oh, I'd love it.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 41:20

Well, I really enjoyed our conversation, really enjoyed the book. Thank you so much for joining us at American potus

mark-benbow_1_04-16-2026_152852 41:26

It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for asking.

alan-lowe_1_04-16-2026_152851 41:29

and thank all of you for joining. As always, we appreciate your support of our podcast. For more episodes, please go to american potus.org and please email me at American potus host@gmail.com. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Thank you so much. I'll see you next time on American potus.